I hate that relationships with men pose such a wide range of possible threats to our wellbeing that we become fixated on trying to figure out whether a man’s traits are harmless icks we can work through, or signs of serious future mental and emotional trauma. Because if we don’t figure it out in real time and make the wrong choice society’s only response is “Why didn’t you see the signs?!”
I could read this writers question, Polly's answer, and all of these comments, over and over and over again. All the stories and perspectives and wisdom give me such goosebumps and hope, while also changing my mind about love and relationships with each new sentence shared. Women have SUCH responsibility to choose the "right" partner that I feel we all can have a sense of defensiveness when it comes to who we are with. Like this comment said, sometimes there seems to be no winning result for us. You are either defending your imperfect partner, or you are defending your choice to be solo.
These shares remind me that a lot of us just want the same thing, a relationship that allows us to sink into the rest of our lives, supported and seen, and not being consumed by what if's and is it good enough. Also I think we all want to just BE in romantic relationships because it is valued so highly in our society, especially with men, of course we would want that. There is this fear of "if i am too choosey, I will spend years alone and that will be hard" - that isn't necessarily wrong, it is hard to be alone in a partner obsessed world, but years "alone" really means years being with YOU in an age and time that you will never have again. Women being alone and choosing themselves is such a new choice for most of us compared to our lineages, and to be able to make that choice and not have people thinking we are wasting away by being "alone" is so important - we are getting sacred time with OURSELVES. I feel like I have the rest of my life to be with someone else. If i am never alone in my 20s or 30s and then get a divorce when I am 50 due to unforeseen circumstances, I don't want to have to learn to be alone then!!! I just think we put so much emphasis on time and being young and in love, biological clocks etc, it's all part of the design, but our perfect paths are our perfect paths and we will always get what is needed.
Phew, so glad I'm not the only one going "oh no I disagree with HH actually".
Say what you will about Gottman, but contempt being the relationship killer is something I've found absolutely true. I tried to "keep an open mind" and accept the straight man tax etc for many relationships and you know what, it was really bad for me and REALLY bad for them, because even if you're trying, they can feel it, you know?
And then I met my husband, and while he has plenty of classic Smart Straight White Guy traits (why is there so much hair in the bathroom if you just cleaned it), at the end of the day he is so smart and so curious and so kind and I fundamentally go, HOW DID I GET SO LUCKY??
I don't feel like you feel that way about this guy, OP. Who cares how he is as a person - you don't have to figure out his objective Goodness Rating, it's a question of how he's a match for you.
I totally agree. I've known way too many pseudo-intellectual dipshits, and this guy sounds exactly like them. If you're going to be a snob about how interesting and smart you are, you need to actually be smart and interesting. AND he can't even wipe a toilet seat? (At 40 years old??) And he's been divorced twice? His ex-wives clearly decided the Straight Guy Tax was not worth paying for this guy. I would run for the hills, personally.
I dramatically underestimated how offensive the piss-poor peeing aim would generally be. I thought I was being inconsiderate and overly critical (e.g., I don't have a penis, maybe it's difficult!). That said: I did not confront him about it because I was TERRIFIED of embarrassing him. I'll call someone out on their language, but not their urinary malfeasance! :)
omg YOU are not being inconsiderate at all!! He is being really inconsiderate!! I asked my husband (since I also don't have a penis lol) and he said that consistently leaving a mess means he's an inconsiderate pig. I think the reason this got such a big reaction is that a lot of us have dealt with brothers/ dads/ boyfriends who have done that, and it's honestly a sign of selfishness/ cleanliness issues. He either thinks it's fine to make you clean up after him (like you're a maid) or he "doesn't even see it" (like a lousy sitcom husband). Is he considerate of you in other areas? Does he always leave his socks everywhere, or "not notice" a sink full of dirty dishes? I think your instincts are right and that you deserve SO much better! You sound great and shouldn't be stuck cleaning up after him or wincing at his classist/ elitist comments. (My parents are also blue collar so I would not have appreciated that comment either!)
thank you, thank you, for your kindness. and thank your husband for his perspective! to answer your question- i don't live with him so we haven't encountered the socks/dishes together.
You're so welcome! If this were real life, we'd go to brunch and all the girls would be APPALLED on your behalf and telling you you deserve way way better than that! And ok, that makes sense, I wonder if he's one of those guys that's perfectly capable until their gf/ wife moves in, and suddenly they forgot how to clean or do laundry. (This may be way off base, but with the two divorces and gross bathroom habits it made me wonder. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't apply!) Sending you good thoughts - I hope things go well, whatever you decide! <3
He SHOULD be embarrassed and you should not be afraid to call out this shit (or pee as it were). I said in another comment that this is a complete dealbreaker. As soon as I read that part about the pee, I heard the needle ripping off the record and didn't need to read anymore (of course I read the whole thing, it's Heather!). Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It just says sooooo much about a person who can't and won't clean up their pee. Yes it's judgemental and we as women are trained to be accommodating and all that and it's hard to unlearn. I am saying in the strongest terms, we should never accept this and it's completely ok to break up with him over this.
The pee thing is a big deal and Heather seemed to brush past it. Count me as another who didn't particularly love her response to this letter.
Anyway, I just watched two episodes of this podcast about dating and finding your person, maybe you'll gain some helpful insight? I don't know if you're looking for marriage (I'm not) but they were still interesting to listen to. https://youtu.be/lGRnaWySoUw?si=GEzUEcYMuHS63gzu
Thank you for your thoughtful response! I have limited knowledge of Gottman, but I agree with the contempt sentiment. Also: I'm glad that you got so lucky (really!). It's heartening. I think I have been trying to figure out an "objective Goodness Rating" as you say, instead of focusing more on what works well for me in a relationship. It does seem a little obvious, now, with hindsight. I've been trying to collect data to make a decision instead of thinking about how the relationship dynamics FEEL to me.
I am a 63 year old guy. Far from every woman's dreamboat. I have my good and my bad qualities. But the idea that I would pee on a place where I know my female partner has to sit daily to go to the bathroom *and not clean us after myself* is something I can't wrap my head around. That's not a "we like different kinds of books or movies or people to be friends with" kind of problem. It's not a "live and let live" problem. It's an "either you sit on my urine or your clean it up" problem. It's an "extremely minimal, basic hygiene and consideration" ask. When I was college age, I shared apartments with male friends, we never would have done or tolerated have this being done to us. For me, this is the reddest of flags.
Also agree. My husband has plenty of classic guy traits but I have never once gone UGH WHY ARE MEN at any of his nonsense. As our career fields overlap I know several extremely similar men who induce that reaction in me for almost identical behaviour. Because I just don't like those other guys.
Agreeee. I think you’d find little things annoying about any partner of any gender. But if they lead you to constantly question if you break up…. It might bc you just don’t like or love your partner all that much (or possibly those little things are actually big things that you’re playing down). Either way….
Last night, I woke up every few hours agonizing about how I should end the relationship, so imagine my surprise to see that my letter to Polly was answered and in my inbox this morning. A letter that I hastily wrote and sent and immediately felt like I did a poor job explaining and gave even poorer examples? I considered sending an amendment, but decided against it, thinking that the broad questions have been answered over and over, and I should invest instead in figuring out my own feelings, instead of asking a very familiar stranger. A very familiar stranger who, shortly after I sent the email, posted "I'm Overthinking My Overthinking Again." And I found clarity in it, specifically (I can't figure out how to link it, so I'll paste):
"Overthinking everything is often a side effect of not knowing how you feel — or not standing up for your feelings once you discover what they are. Maybe your parents treated your emotions as wildly inconvenient or taxing or irrational, so you wound up trying to talk yourself out of every desire you had. And after decades of talking yourself out of your emotions, it becomes extremely difficult to interpret the meaning of any sensation...Your body pays the price. Instead of enjoying your felt experience, you live inside your head, which is always making random noise like a rattle full of beads."
I need to get over my shock at the timing and also still digest Polly's response to my ACTUAL letter. But thank you--for responding. I do come off like a snobby arrogant hypocrite who is blind to her own flaws. I can only say that it takes a lot for me to get out of my head and feel things, and I don't know that I am able to feel in this relationship--both because of my own reservations but also because the his emotional depth and vulnerability doesn't present in a way I can understand, where I can FEEL instead of think think think all the time....
I am processing and appreciating the comments. Thank you.
This is the only Ask Polly response that I've not fully engaged with. I disagree with her reading of your letter. She has some interesting insights and possibilities. AND I think you know what being in a relationship with straight white men is like. You aren't a novice. I think if it were a match then you'd be able to navigate the inherent issues. If it were a match, his reading true crime novels would be tolerable if not mildly endearing or something to tease him about. When it's not a match and you can't quite put your finger on why, these annoyances, concerns, or "yellow flags" just get magnified. A year is a long time to not be sure if you're in love.
I am grateful for your perspective here, and I appreciate the "grace" you've given in that you recognize I'm not a novice or unfamiliar with straight white guys. It is becoming clear that I may have been focusing on these "flaws" not because they were THE PROBLEM, but because I was trying to explain my lack of engagement in the relationship, to justify the way I have been feeling. Thank you.
My first instinct upon reading the original letter is that being divorced twice is RED FLAG, not a yellow one. Regardless of a person's gender, if someone I loved was dating a twice-divorcee, I would be deeply concerned that my loved one was signing up to be #3.
I know someone who got married young, got divorced a year later, and rebounded right into another marriage, this time with a close friend. They amicably divorced after a year. Then he spent the next 25 years working on himself, so when he did marry again, it was for all the right reasons.
If I were in LW's shoes, I would want to know a great deal about the previous relationships/divorces not from an insecure standpoint but simply because it is very very important to know how he views the relationships (is it entirely the other person's fault? etc); what has he learned; has he implemented what he's learned; how are the kids coping etc.
Really? I was in three marriages (two trad, one common in-law) before meeting and moving in with the fella I've been extremely happy with for 24 years. I'm still friends with my first husband, the father of my grown-up kids. My other two both died in the last couple of years, and we remained amicable. Luckily it never occurred to me for an instant that I was a bad bet as a partner. I came of age in the late 60s though - perhaps we hippies were less transactional.
While I think that the culture these days is generally transactional (and Boomers have very much steered the culture in this direction, since they’ve been in power since the 80s), I don’t understand how being hesitant to date someone twice-divorced has anything to do with being transactional. Could you explain?
I have to agree; the questioner doesn't seem snobbish or perfectionistic to me. Her white male partner does sound like (I am an academic however) a certain type of comfortable person in academia -- mostly a conformist, and kind of intellectually lazy, but needs to signal for career or ego or just long entrenched reasons, intellectual curiosity and the right kind of politics. He probably believes what he says, but has never bothered to work out the contradictions. And likely acts out those contradictions. That can be really annoying, and is a characteristic generally divorced from conflict management skills, which it sounds like he has. You can be a little boring, a little hypocritical, and be sensitive to others and atune to emotions to a large degree; as long as those hypocrisies and the conflict do not encroach on each other. What if he meets her blue collar parents? What would he do? I think that and whether she can accept this guy is full of shit a good 20% of the time is the ultimate test for the relationship. There's no need to rationalize him as 'free-spirited' or able to embrace his own flaws and her as perfectionistic. She doesn't have to be wrong about him at all...
If you're agonizing about trying to get out of this relationship, I think that says everything. This guy might not be The Worst™️ but he doesn't seem to be for you. Also a man at his big big age still leaving pee all over the toilet seat is a huge turn off. He might be better for a while (if you pester him enough). But in my experience, people who aren't considerate of others are unlikely to change long term. Do you still want to be wiping up his pee in 5 years? 10 years?
Maria, trust yourself. PLEASE. As wise as HH is, she's not psychic and CANNOT know if he really is one of your soulmates and she will not have to live with the consequences if he isn't and you stay in a relationship that erodes away at your soul and dignity.
I don't know him or you so I cannot be an authority either, but based on what you describe in your letter and in the comments, his behaviours smack of gaslighting and a snobbish disregard of other people's integrity.
Only you have the contextual information to know if that's true for you though.
The perfect partner does not exist, agreed. But I think you already knew that and that that isn't the lesson you need to learn in this situation. I think you're 100% right that it's likely to be more about not overthinking your feelings and trusting them instead!
Your rage is telling you something, but you've been censoring it trying to have what you think an enlightened attitude looks like. Ironically, that tends to take you further away from it. Instead, if you haven't already, consider expressing your anger fully, listening to it, even if privately or with someone else other than your partner. It may lead you away from him, but also may surprise you and lead you back. Either way, you'll have become more YOURSELF. PRICELESS.
In my experience, no relationship can give you that and no relationship can be truly happy without it.
“Your rage is telling you something, but you've been censoring it trying to have what you think an enlightened attitude looks like.” This spoke directly to me!! Love this whole response
Thank you. I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I think it's a great suggestion to express anger fully. I have been trying to be enlightened and open, and to not throw away someone who is not bad for what I was concerned were "squirmy" reasons. Thank you.
Oh, I get this, but please: let yourself dump someone for squirmy reasons! If they're your squirmy reasons, however snobby or whatever they are, they're legit. And they may be the superficial manifestation of bigger, non-squirmy reasons. If you feel fundamentally that he's not the right guy for you - and it could be for no better reason than he likes green nail polish - you're allowed to act on that. You can dump somebody for ridiculous reasons if it doesn't feel right.
Another point that Heather/Polly made which I think is important - the role of grief in how you're feeling. And I'm so sorry about your parents' deaths, particularly because they died not far apart, and it sounds like in traumatizing ways. Losing one parent, at any age, is hard. Losing two like that must be terrible.
I heard somewhere that you shouldn't make any big life decisions for a year while you're grieving. But I broke up with my boyfriend a month or so after my father died - his death actually showed me that life's too short to be in a not-great relationship (mind you, we had much bigger problems than you and your boyfriend seem to). And I am glad about that decision.
As Heather says, only you can know the answer. But it does seem like there are some genuine issues of concern here - and that you may be discounting your feelings about them because you see them as not OK.
I usually mainly agree with the responses to the letters, but this one seemed a little off to me. It seemed like Heather was responding to each of the complaints taken individually instead of letting it inform a larger whole. Yes, none of these instances is a dealbreaker on its own. But I don't think that you're wrong in thinking that they could point to something deeper.
I will admit that I'm biased - I ended a relationship with a person who seems a little bit like your partner, also at about the one year mark. In a lot of ways, he was good - kind, reliable, etc. But he was careless and thoughtless in a way that only became apparent over time. Part of the reason it wasn't immediately obvious is because he was in the habit of saying thoughtful-sounding phrases. Even if it wasn't his intention, I don't think that he was accurately reflecting who he truly was as a person.
For example, one time he said, "An unexamined life isn't worth living." Expecting a deep, revealing conversation to follow, I asked "What makes life worth living for you?" And he responded - with no self-awareness whatsoever - "Oh, I don't know." And he shrugged. That was it. That was the whole conversation.
"...it seems that some of his ideas are more performative than reflective and internalized."
Please pay attention to this. It's important. What good is having any conversation, if your partner doesn't actually mean what he says? Ultimately, I left the relationship mainly because I just felt like he was impossible to get to know. He didn't know himself, so I couldn't get to know him. I couldn't put any weight on the things he would say, even when I wanted to, and that's no way to live.
Ultimately, only you can decide if you think that your partner's traits add up to something or if they are one-off instances.
EDIT: I realized that I left out the best part. After I broke up with the guy above, I went on to date several more people before I found my current boyfriend. My current boyfriend isn't 100% perfect, but he is thoughtful and he listens and he genuinely cares about people. He's curious and intellectual and intentional about what he says. It turns out that all of the things that people told me were unrealistic about straight, white men aren't unrealistic after all. I cannot tell you how comfortable and, frankly, relaxing it is to be with someone who already has a real stance on many important issues. AND - get this - HE IS A SECONDARY TEACHER.
Oh my goodness. How can I begin here. First: thank you. I was definitely pulling the pieces together as a whole and concerned with what seemed to me to be incongruities between who he was TELLING me he was and how he ACTUALLY IS when he's not paying super close attention. I didn't mention this in the letter, but his carelessness and thoughtlessness have become more and more apparent over time as he has relaxed. I also have eerily similar concerns as you did in your previous, now-defunct relationship.
Second: you DID save the best for last! I'm so happy that you found your current boyfriend. I don't want to believe that it's unrealistic, and I'm glad that you have literal proof! :) That he is a secondary teacher just...ooof. Thank you, dear.
"...incongruities between who he was TELLING me he was and how he ACTUALLY IS when he's not paying super close attention."
Not to be alarmist, but I honestly think that this is one of the biggest red flags for long-term compatibility. You need to be confident in who someone is in order to really care about them and commit to them. Like you, we had never said 'I love you' and there seemed to be some emotional distance between us. It finally clicked when there were finally enough examples of this incongruence for me to point to and think, "I don't feel like I know this person, so of course I can't really love him deeply."
If your guy is a good partner in other ways, do you think it would be worthwhile to talk to him directly about this? If he knows that this kind of carelessness is making you have doubts, maybe he can make a better effort to be thoughtful in his communications.
Marie, you deserve better. The way his mask slips as he relaxes into this is a red flag, not a yellow one. My ex started off seeming one thing and becoming another once it was too late for me to get out. And the pee on the seat? Is he FIVE? That is a dealbreaker. He’s testing how much of his bullshit you’ll put up with, subconsciously or consciously. You deserve someone thoughtful and curious, someone who IS who he SAYS he is. They exist. I married one, second time around. Let this fish wriggle back into the ocean.
If you're constantly overthinking, I think you SHOULD break up with him. I know a big difficulty with not growing up with a secure attachment style, you're constantly wondering if your feelings are coming from a place of avoidance, or if it's genuinely a problem. But I think there's a difference between the straight man tax, and someone saying off-color shit and then claiming to be a liberal. Him using pussy as an insult, and then apologizing because "I shouldn't be using that around you" and then saying or example, he was talking about secondary teachers and he said, "They're not really as smart as you would think they'd be. They’re really not interested in learning or critical thought. They're just blue collar, simple people." ...that's not great. At the end of the day, it's what the original commentaro said about her husband. It's ALL ABOUT RATIOS. There's something to be said about ambivalence, how ambivalence occurs when we go through so, so much pain, have avoidant attachment styles, etc. etc.
But like, imagine you weren't avoidant. Pretend for one second you're one of those magically securely attached people. Take the complicating factor of your attachment style out of the picture. Would you still be able to tolerate these flaws? Or is your secure self also someone who dislikes these tiny red flags? Just trust your feelings, OP, even though I know your feelings led you astray a lot in the past. If you continue to suffer and struggle and agonize, then break up with him. Maybe you'll feel regret and then agonize over whether you made the right decision. But just trust yourself--I don't think your eyes are cloudy here. I think they're perfectly clear, but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings.
I could very well be wrong about all of this. Ultimately you're the one stuck with your emotional storms. But there's a difference between ambivalence and agony.
YES--totally. I am always concerned that I'm acting avoidant, or that my interpretation is entirely wrong. I appreciate you calling out what was the most troubling about the "pussy" comment--that he followed it with "I shouldn't use that AROUND YOU." It was actually one of the things that started my wheels spinning, because I thought: Who are you, really? And what parts of you are being presented as a performance FOR ME?
Thank you, very much for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I am so grateful. Also: WHAT THE FUCK is this beauty??: "I don't think your eyes are cloudy here. I think they're perfectly clear, but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings." THANK YOU. :)
Yeah! Like, maybe this is my social justice warrior Gen Z self talking, but like...there's a difference between being driven by sexism in ways you can't understand, and saying a gendered slur. Getting language to be "politically correct" is one of the most basic things people learn, and while there's plenty, PLENTY of people who are politically correct as well as assholes, it's kind of concerning he says he's a liberal, but he doesn't even understand not to say something like using pussy as an insult. Makes me concerned he does gladly use it around men. An actual example of being driven by sexism in subtle ways? I have so much rage and buried disdain towards my mother, and while a lot of it is due to past childhood abuse, I can mimick the highly criticial ways my father treated my mom (I'm her daughter) when I'm feeling stressed and therefore judgmental. That's an actual way people can absorb sexism, which I'm digging through.
Like...I think the reason you have so much agony as someone said in another comment thread--this guy isn't insensitive just because he's a white straight guy and culture adores him. He's insensitive because he straight up doesn't appear to have done the surface level work of digging for unconscious prejudices (calling secondary teachers having no critical thinking? hello???? those people are in the TRENCHES!!), and even if you point it out, and he apologizes, like...that's just treating the symptom. The cause being he doesn't appear to have seriously done work to dig out societal biasess. You're worried you don't actually know this guy, as another comment thread you had with someone else just said, and that's causing you suffering. You can have a serious talk with him, but ultimately I just really want you to know--I don't think you're being avoidant. I think you're noticing a possible dealbreaker that even secure people would be a little icked about.
Also thank you for the compliment about that line, hahaha. I hope you find peace with whatever decision you make. But my best advice? If you keep agonizing for another two months, just break up with him. Even if Polly is right, and this is all from your avoidance, fantasy of perfection...I don't think it would be good for you to try to sort out that complicated emotional shit in the middle of dating him. Ultimately, PLEASE make a decision that isn't based on a self-doubting narrative because you don't trust your feelings anymore due to your past avoidance. That's no good for you
One thing I struggled with was this early feeling that my partner did and said all the right feminist things, had the lesbian pals etc. And it was all performative. He LOVED having their esteem––much more than he loved me being confident, empowered or healed. In the end, the mask fell off and I saw that his identification with feminists was that he felt victimized (as it turns out, by smart women).
"...but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings." What a beautiful phrase! And yes, I agree with your observation here.
It's usually not the big things that make people incompatible, it's the little things adding up into a thousand paper cuts. I think you should consider looking at him as objectively as you can, through his actions rather than his words or how he tries to portray himself. It doesn't matter what he thinks of himself and tells you about himself, pay attention to your own observations of his actions and behaviors. 2 divorces is indeed a red flag. Can someone have so little self-awareness to get divorced TWICE? It might not be a dealbreaker for everyone but it's a dealbreaker for me, and maybe it would be for you as well.
For the record, I do NOT agree with Polly’s response to you, and I do NOT think you come off as a snobby, arrogant hypocrite. I do NOT think you are overreacting or overthinking. In fact, I think you’re being quite reasonable with reasonable expectations, and that Polly’s response is actually a bit unreasonable and she’s making excuses for men and asking you to do the work on yourself instead asking them to do the work on themselves. No, straight men do not get a pass in the name of “well, this is just how straight men are *shrug*.” Obviously, we feminists don’t all agree, so it really comes down to you doing what you feel is right for you no matter our feedback. But, I wanted to tell you that I disagree with her for what it’s worth.
Hmmmmmm. I think women need to trust their instincts more. Personally, I would pay attention to your radar and tiny red flags. To me his pee all over the toilet is likely not unconscious. It's a weird way of pissing on you....testing your boundaries. He's been acting like he is testing your boundaries with comments too. Any average guy I know would be embarrassed to leave pee on his girlfriend's toilet. If you aren't really feeling enthusiastic about this guy, listen to yourself. So many want to tell us we are too picky. That attitude is dismissive. My guilt over being too picky, my tendency to think it was all my fault precipitated many years of distress. I don't recommend not trusting what you see and hear....
YES. Whether or not he’s even aware of it he is seeing what he can get away with before they get more serious. If he does this in your house when it’s fairly easy to break up with him, just imagine what he’ll do when you uproot an hour to live with him 🤢
Polly’s response was beautiful but I couldn’t shake my initial reaction to LW; that she simply didn’t want to be with this man enough to be with him. It seemed like she actually agreed with Polly, that he’s a catch and that maybe the icks were not so meaningful… perhaps this is just me but a year together seems like a long time to “maybe” feel like you’re falling in love?
Thank you for your insight--I didn't realize that came across in the letter!
Is a year a long time to "maybe" feel like you could fall in love with someone? I honestly don't know anymore. To clarify: I rushed into declarations of love since age 13 and in this relationship, I wanted to be cautious (he was still married after all), and also to think about what loving someone means vs. the mad rush of saying it and hearing it. We have not uttered "love" words or feelings and while there is affection and tenderness to some degree, there are no sweet nothings or cute intimacies or expressions of feeling. I am normally expressive to some degree in a relationship, but have kind of adapted to his lack of emotional expression and tendency toward irony vs. vulnerability.
"We have not uttered "love" words or feelings and while there is affection and tenderness to some degree, there are no sweet nothings or cute intimacies or expressions of feeling. I am normally expressive to some degree in a relationship, but have kind of adapted to his lack of emotional expression"
Girl, I don't usually say this but DUMP HIM. This sounds miserable!!! Please don't lock yourself in a relationship box where sweetness and emotional expression are not allowed.
It makes me think about that Aimee Mann/Til Tuesday song, "Voices Carry" which is about a relationship where one person makes rules of emotional silence, and the other person follows those rules, even though they hate it.
If you are going to be in a relationship with another flawed human (which is, as Polly points out, ALL relationships) you really need all the kindness and laughter and sweet nothings and in-joke's and stupid pet names you can get. You need moments where your partner is genuinely trying to express their love for you, even though they're embarrassed and it feels dumb and vulnerable.
To stick with the 80s songs, a good long-term relationship isn't "Voices Carry". It's a combination of Bryan Adam's "Heaven" and Men Without Hats' "Safety Dance". Both sincere and silly. You deserve that. :-)
Ohh my goodness, a Til Tuesday reference! (Until recently, one of my best friends and I heard the lyrics to that song as "This is scary"!) Thank you. I feel such gratitude for the variety of perspectives even as it feels incredibly surreal to be the topic of response. I fully agree with the need for sincerity and silliness, and dumb, vulnerable embarrassing expressions. Thank you :)
Also for what it's worth, I think you are SO brave and thoughtful, coming here and engaging with the comments section. That takes a lot of courage and emotional integrity! I hope you feel cared for and supported! Whether we all agree or disagree, I know everyone here is wishing the best for you. :-)
Hm well I’ll say what I’ve found to be true for me, and then I’ll do some general pontificating haha
For me: whenever I’m having a conversation with myself about a relationship that sounds like “maybe I’m just not feeling xyz yet because I need more time / I need more information / maybe I’m being judgemental or avoidant etc”… I only wind up finding out very concretely that this person is not for me. When I’m falling in love, these conversations with myself don’t happen, even if I remain cautious and keep tabs on behaviour that might make someone a bad match, even as I notice and am peeved about little things that irritate me. I think this is because… I’d really like to love someone! So when a lot of things are right on paper, I hate accepting that the mysterious feelings thing just isn’t happening. Aaaand if I was with someone for a year and they weren’t definitely in love with me… I’d give them a hug and take my toothbrush out of their bathroom and I’d be on my merry way.
General pontificating: I’m certain there is a beautiful, deeply loving, decades long relationship out there where neither person has ever said “I love you”. I’m sure there are people who do say I love you, who are deeply in love, who at first felt ambivalent about the person they’re with, maybe for years. At the risk of sounding like the kind of fantasist Polly warns about, I’m going to refer to one of my favourite films, Sleepless in Seattle: I am actually so in love with Bill Pullman’s character in that movie (noisy sleep mask, allergies, and all), and over time, I’ve come to understand Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks’ characters as kind of weirdos about love! I think it’s a movie about two people being the same kind of weirdo about love, and that’s why they’re supposed to be together. I think challenging ourselves, being self-aware, and trying to grow are all wonderful, worthy lifelong pursuits. I also think part of love might be… just accepting which kind of love weirdo you are haha I think there’s a part of that which is outside of our control, maddeningly. Maybe you are the kind of person for whom the path to love is supposed to be a beautiful long road where you’re questioning things but something lovely is quietly, slowly growing alongside that. There is nothing wrong with that, if so. But also, maybe how quickly you fell in love in those other relationships wasn’t the reason they didn’t work out. I get it — that’s also maddening!
I went on a date recently with a guy who very clearly was a busybody - I could just tell, and he admitted it as much to me, telling me "I nag a bit." And he had already started doing it to me. For example, when I told him I was going to a particular social event that night, he nodded disapprovingly and said, "I guess that's ok. How late do you stay at those things?" Also mentioning something like, "Why did you pay for an Uber to get here, when you could have just gotten on the Metro?"
My inner voice immediately said, "Someone is going to love the shit out of this guy some day, but it's not for me." I just know that this is not the type of flaw that I can tolerate in a relationship, or at least when I'm aware of it so early, one I want to avoid. The fact that I said "someone is going to love the shit out of this guy someday," though, made me think I'm maturing a bit. I saw this flaw as simply something I can't tolerate rather than an existential flaw of him as a person.
On the other hand, I have dated many guys who friends later pointed out to me were "one uppers." You know, the kind of person who can't ever let you have a good story or the spotlight without jumping in with something bigger, or better, or worse that has happened to them. It makes me roll my eyes and I get a bit annoyed, but it's something I can live with. Other people would go running for the hills; for me, it's something I can live with. I can handle an attention seeker; I can't handle someone trying to control my every move.
I think we all have to (hopefully quickly, otherwise we will always be alone) figure out what we can live with, and what we can't. Only this emailer knows if this quality works for her or not. Like Polly, my sense is that she can.
Also, Polly, thanks for affirming my laziness lol. We are all animals. Have you ever seen a lion in the wild? They spend 95% of their time laying around, and 5% of their time roaring. That's how I like to look at it. :)
Glad you like it! I also try to step back and think of it in terms of a job. (It's obviously not that, but thinking about a relationship like a job is sometimes helpful to sober up.) We put up with a lot of shit - annoying hours, people you don't like, boring work - because at the end of the day it deeply supports our well-being and if we're lucky, we love it at the end of the day or it at least helps us support something we love (a hobby, a side passion, or just good 'ol fashioned self-care).
I LOVE how Hillary Clinton writes in her new book about why she stayed with Bill Clinton during the affair years. She said she many times thought she was going to leave, but she kept coming back to the question, "Do I still love him? Are we good together?" And the answer was always yes. And she tells a beautiful story about how after she lost the election in 2016, she and Bill shut out the world and laid in bed and he took care of her in such a kind way. She said she was glad that she had a lifelong husband in that moment. Had she left him, she wouldn't have had that experience.
This made me feel affirmed, because honestly for me some wandering eyes and a huge reckless decision, I think, wouldn't be a super big deal breaker for me either. Totally understand it is for some people though.
This is the first Polly letter that I think I strongly disagree with.
She made some good points and did make me reflect for a while but ultimately assuming LW didn’t exaggerate too much in her descriptions I do not trust this man at all.
I think he’s slowly testing LW to see how much disrespect she’ll take or how much she’s willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Many such men don’t actually view women as people and that’s why our arguments don’t really bother them or why they’re able to be so self assured. He doesn’t feel challenged by her (ex. The blue collar comment) and is only looking to adapt his phrasing to keep her at bay rather than actually reflect on anything and grow. And if he’s too busy with his 2 kids to grow then take one thing off his plate and leave him.
Oof! Thank you! I see exactly where you are going here, and while I don't think he's as malicious as it could possibly seem, I do think there is an adaption of phrasing vs. reflecting and growing. I like your sharp response! Thank you.
It sounds like you want this man to think the way you do, to have exactly the same values, opinions, and preferences. Like Polly, I wouldn’t date you, either - expecting someone to thank you (!!) for correcting their wrong opinion sounds so insanely controlling and arrogant. (Btw the foundation of intellectualism is critique, so mayyyybe your discomfort with someone not aligning with your worldview means you aren’t the intellectual you believe you are?)
If you don’t really like this man but are relying on him for support for your current health issues and grief over your parents, do him a favor and leave.
OH LW MARIE!!!!! I FEEL LIKE YOU FROM AN ALTERNATE FUTURE!!!!!! This vibed with me deeply:
"Further, it seems like I tend to choose men in two categories: those who are really into me (and I am kind of into them) or those who are indifferent to me (and I REALLY want them to change their minds)."
And in my experience, being someone at least a little similar to you, THE RELATIONSHIP FLAW THAT CANNOT BE OVERCOME IS THAT "WINCE" YOU FEEL WHEN SOMEONE SAYS OR DOES SOMETHING AND IT JUST SEEMS.... uncool.
I'm not using the word "cool" lightly. I think finding your partner cool is sacred. And continuing to find your partner cool even after being through the shit with them and you've both given a lot to each other and seen each other at your worst is maybe, to me, what love is.
Finding your partner cool consists of moments and long stretches of time when they seem amazing, and also a COMPARATIVELY SMALL number of times when you sort of suck your teeth and say "oof" on their behalf. You describe two types of moments:
"some days I think oh my gosh, I think I could really be falling in love with him. And then he says something ridiculous, or he pushes his opinion into something he knows nothing about, or he gets pee all over my toilet (honestly, he's the only dude I’ve met who does this, or at least doesn't notice and clean it off?), and I think: What the fuck am I doing?"
That is EXACTLY how I think about love and relationships, and to me, the ratio in your relationship sounds off.
It's that little "ouch." The little moment of your soul not diving into his but instead holding back and going.... "oof."
It's not about ANY quality he possesses, it's how you FEEL about him.
I PERSONALLY FIND my husband to be "appropriate in manner and apprehension" (to be Jane Austen about it) ALL the time, brilliantly gifted in expression VERY often (like I wish I could have that on tape), and UNCOOL in expression very close to never. Less than any man I've ever met and perhaps as infrequently as it is possible for a straight cisgender man to do. Infrequently enough that when it happens, I greet it as a glorious reminder of how little it happens and how happy I am that I waited.
I BROKE UP with everyone I felt that way too often about, and I'm so, so happy I did. I am so, so happy with my husband.
And to Polly's overall point of desiring forgiveness and understanding in a relationship, and to be with someone who doesn't nitpick, YOU CAN HAVE BOTH. In fact, what I think what characterizes all my best relationships is an ACTUALLY WIERD RATIO of how discerning I think the other person is, and how smart they think I am. It feels a bit blessed and amazing that someone whose taste is as good as my husband's is also finds me to be the most brilliant person in the world. It's like a demanding ski slope that you're somehow super, super good at. Like discovering you're strong in The Force.
Oh Pigeon! I feel such affection for you, right from the start. Thank you, thank you. For taking the time to respond, and to share your wisdom. I am on board with this concept of the "WINCE" and finding your partner to be cool (or having deep respect for them) is sacred, and important. Everyone says dumb shit (I SAY DUMB SHIT ALL THE TIME!!!) I do not think that everyone would think that I am "cool" - but certain people do. I fully agree; the ratio IS off. I kept arguing with myself like: but is it really? let me ask my friends...let me reach out to Ask Polly (and, by extension, the Ask Polly substack community), perhaps my eyes are cloudy? While I identified myself as a snob, I am also pretty full of self-doubt, even regarding the things I am snobbish about.
Thank you. I am in a sort of awe at the way you've described both your marriage and your relationship and the RATIOS, and I love thinking that you are me from an alternate future. I am happy for you, and for your appropriate in manner and apprehension, cool as fuck husband. I am happy that you are happy. Thank you.
I met mine on OKCupid, (which is also the main way I met people in my 20s, with bars and parties as a distant second. When you go to a bar to meet men you should say "I'm waiting for a friend" when guys ask what you're doing there. A cool older girl taught me that.) I didn't meet my husband until I was 38, so even more than meeting people, the skill that helped me most was getting good at breaking up with them, so I could be free to one day meet him.
I also had to be ready, inside, to settle down. I *WANTED* to be ready sooner, or at least, I was getting worried that there was something wrong with me not being ready, that I was going to "miss out" or "end up alone" because I was "too picky." Now I think you can't fake readiness, and you also don't have to. It's just as wonderful to fall in love at 38 as it is at 25. You know a lot more about yourself.
Omg thank you so much. Your bit about readiness is the pearl of wisdom I need. I beat myself up for years for being anxious about dating. I think I simply didn't want to go but was pressuring myself. Then there was a break in the clouds and I calmed down and I very soon after met my (ex) boyfriend.
loved reading abt yourexperiences Pigeon. did you feel ready to settle down before you met your husband or did the strength of your connection help tame your previous ambivalence?
“Once you stop living behind a veil of sadness and shame, you’ll be able to put down your defenses and let him in. That’s where a solid love starts: on undefended territory, where you can both admit that you are just imperfect humans who make bad choices over and over and there’s no real way around it.”
This is so beautiful and so true. After 54 years, my husband’s flaws are the same flaws he had when he was 19. And I suspect my flaws are the same too. I reckon he’s OCD, he reckons I’m a slob. He reads crime novels and loves Aston Villa. I sulk ostentatiously when the commentary is on the radio every flipping weekend and weeknights too. He’s a bloke. I didn’t imagine myself with a bloke, but with some kind of hunky Renaissance prince. But we fell into it and then we signed up for it. Love isn’t the be all and end all of a relationship, it’s the mortar that keeps it all together. Once you let love in, without judgment or doubt, you can stop that constant mental assessment of whether this person ‘deserves’ your love.
I appreciate your and Polly's perspective here about flaws, but I am curious about how your bloke responds to your ostentatious sulking about his sports commentary being on each night? Has it become a form of playful affection, or does he shut down, close off and become angry about it?
There is a big difference between being lighthearted and honest about flaws in a relationship where honesty and open communication is valued, even when it leans toward the critical, and those kind of expressions landing like a knife in someone's heart...
Oh that’s a good question. At some point in our relationship this tension slipped from being a genuine conflict to being more of a game, a ritual in which we each acknowledge the balance of give and take between us. It may have been after we had gone through a particularly difficult period (and I believe all longtime relationships have these) in which we were both put to the test and at which point we both decided that we were better off staying together than falling apart. Once through that trial by fire, in which we forgave each other fairly major things, and understood that we had grown up together and understood each other better than anyone else could, it became easier to forgive the small things and weave them into the fabric of our lives going forward. It would just be fake to be all sunshine and roses all the time. We have to give space to our differences. Thank you for asking because it has been clarifying for me to try to put this into words.
I feel like this is genuinely an “is the dress black/blue or white/gold” situation. I thought Polly’s advice rang true as someone who struggles to quiet the nagging voice of doubt in new relationships, similar to LW. I also feel like a lot of the comments are falling into the trap of not being able to listen to advice they don’t want to hear. Realistically, many people are unpartnered, not by choice, but because they’re tethered to a narrow view of what perfect looks like. It’s not helpful to be validated when what you need is a wake up call. But the issue here is that we genuinely can’t know what the moment calls for.
It’s so hard to draw the line between settling your anxiety and just plain settling. Retrospectively, it’s easy to identify the signs that doomed a relationship, and I can see a few of those signs in this letter. But from another angle, they’re the ramblings of an overactive critical voice. My therapist used to remind me all the time to see the good in situations and people—to shut up my incontinent brain that couldn’t help being suspicious of anything good. For me that was the right advice, and I think that’s what Heather is alluding to with her talk of soulmates.
All I can say is good luck, dear letter writer! None of us get only one shot at happiness, so keep in mind that this one choice doesn’t seal your fate. You’re gonna be ok however it shakes out.
I couldn't agree more. I think both parties in this situationship have some self-evaluation/reflective-adjustment to do. It's hard to know if either of these people have really stepped "in". We don't know about his potential concerns, but she could start by telling him about how she feels when he doesn't clean up his splatter!
I’m kind of confused and disappointed by this advice. Of course no one is perfect, and we should partner with the people who have flaws we can accept, but is everyone really only experiencing straight men who are not self aware, curious and respectful? My father (68), brother (28), brother in law (35), and best friend (34) all manage to have conversations that are intellectually exciting while not pontificating about things they don’t know. They are willing to challenge default prejudices and genuinely change, and update language choices because they take time to understand, and feel genuine empathy.
I’ve met plenty of people who lack these qualities, and I know everyone can have blind spots and act embarrassing sometimes. And of course people who’ve benefited from patriarchy, white supremacy, and financial/educational privilege might be more likely to be lazy about change. But straight men are capable of being better than that.
One thing that I have noticed about these very good men is that they all have suffered in some way because of the standards of our society. Whether it’s poverty, being disabled, or being Indigenous, they’ve dealt with something that our culture punishes. Maybe straight, privileged women need to decide if their partner being white/abled/“handsome”/financially successful is more important than them having self awareness and empathy.
I don’t date cis straight men though, so maybe I just don’t understand why anyone would put up with a “straight man tax”.
I think that the main issue is that historically women have been raised to value empathy, understanding, emotions, and intimate bonds. A lifetime of valuing these things makes them more likely to put effort into developing the relationship skills needed to maintain long-term connections. When they are dating straight men, however, it's just more difficult to find these qualities in a partner.
This creates a lot of dissonance for the women who are unable to find partners with similar values. On the one hand, if they value relationships so much, shouldn't they compromise and be 'realistic' and accept the men they date for how they are (especially since society caused them to be that way)? On the other hand, healthy relationships don't force you to compromise on fundamental issues of values and compatibility. The result is that straight women get a TON of really conflicting messages their whole lives. Letters like this one really show how difficult it is for women to balance what they need in a relationship with what they are realistically able to find.
I get where you're coming from with your third paragraph, but I don't think that it's accurate. Some people channel their suffering into kindness and compassion, but some do not. It's such an individual thing. I cannot tell you how many beautiful women I know who, after being treated poorly, decided to date a guy who was not conventionally attractive, only to then be treated poorly by THAT guy. It's pretty misguided to think that people will have better character just because they're disabled or not white or earn less. People are just people.
I've read Ask Polly and Heather's work for years. I think she missed the mark on this one (and that is totally human)! The dude in question shows traits of an entitled man and it's time to move the fuck on. I've tried to say many men/partners were enough and make it work. Enough. I matter now. I fucking matter now. I think that's what we work to learn throughout our lives, as a counter to patriarchy and culture and white supremacy and the toxic soup that exploits. I don't like him! I don't think you do either and fuck yes to seeking clarity with your one wild and precious life.
I understand the impulse to nudge people to be "realistic" about their partners. But, in a sexist, patriarchal society, reality is often depressing and unsatisfying for women. Something can be both very common and also genuinely bad. Being dissatisfied isn't always a sign that someone is unrealistic, or has expectations that are too high, or that they're struggling with intimacy and/or loving themselves.
Kara Loewentheil beautiful and compassionate book 'Take Back Your Brain' is an incredible tonic to the onslaught of "you're being unrealistic" messaging!
I think the framing of snob/simpleton is a red herring, and that what's actually at stake here is integrity. How does the answer differ if the question is: "Does my partner demonstrate enough integrity for me to trust him?"
The examples given show misalignment between her partner's stated beliefs and his actions. She also wonders whether his stated beliefs are, in fact, true, or simply said for her approval; a 'good person with liberal values' mask that he puts on to keep him out of trouble.
"I should have remembered who I was talking to" as a response to being called up on using "pussy" as an insult, is a thinly veiled insult toward the LW. A concession, masked (there's that word again) as self-correction. She seems to wonder at what drives these troubling ways of his - is he just a dude? Is he lazy? Or is he showing entitlement that she knows, on a deep, gut level, will eventually be weaponised against her.
I love that he helped you through difficult times. That's huge. I also love that in disagreements, you both stick with it until you see the other person's side. Does he genuinely engage in the conflict? Or is he adept at saying what he needs to so that peace is restored?
Maybe the deeper dynamics hinted at in the letter can be a genuine and heartfelt conversation that brings you closer than ever. But I don't think these concerns are just you being too judgemental due to fear. That's likely part of it, but sometimes our alarm system goes off for a reason. Ignoring your instincts seems like purposefully blinding yourself so you can better imagine some fantasy future that, as it stands now, may never exist. Perhaps this is your own mask, one you try to hastily tie in place, hopeful that the difficult times can finally be behind you now.
[this turned out a little dark - definitely says more about me than the LW or relationship she's in <3 ]
Thank you for your perspective! I think what you point out is VERY astute: it is exactly about integrity, trust, and congruence with stated beliefs. I framed it snob/simpleton because it was ... easy (I'm a simpleton!).
I also love that he helped me through difficult times--this is what makes the decision of whether to continue in the relationship so difficult. A lot of the comments have mentioned ratios. I don't think you ended up dark at all. I really appreciate your thoughts and insights. Thank you for thoughtfully examining a strangers concerns!
I'm not sure this is helpful, but I wouldn't date a person "finalizing" a divorce. They haven't had time to reflect and regroup. They are often hurt and angry and passive-aggressive afterward. They repeatedly pee on your toilet seat, like a baby. It's amazing what you can overlook in a person you love, and it's amazing what you cannot overlook in a person you don't. Don't feel bad that you don't love this toilet-peeing baby man. You just lost your parents. This is not the time for baby-man. And there ARE others out there -- I love Polly, but I am so tired of women being threatened that they will never find someone else. Half of the hideous, abusive relationships on this planet are because of women being terrified they will NEVER FIND ANYONE ELSE.
I hate that relationships with men pose such a wide range of possible threats to our wellbeing that we become fixated on trying to figure out whether a man’s traits are harmless icks we can work through, or signs of serious future mental and emotional trauma. Because if we don’t figure it out in real time and make the wrong choice society’s only response is “Why didn’t you see the signs?!”
I could read this writers question, Polly's answer, and all of these comments, over and over and over again. All the stories and perspectives and wisdom give me such goosebumps and hope, while also changing my mind about love and relationships with each new sentence shared. Women have SUCH responsibility to choose the "right" partner that I feel we all can have a sense of defensiveness when it comes to who we are with. Like this comment said, sometimes there seems to be no winning result for us. You are either defending your imperfect partner, or you are defending your choice to be solo.
These shares remind me that a lot of us just want the same thing, a relationship that allows us to sink into the rest of our lives, supported and seen, and not being consumed by what if's and is it good enough. Also I think we all want to just BE in romantic relationships because it is valued so highly in our society, especially with men, of course we would want that. There is this fear of "if i am too choosey, I will spend years alone and that will be hard" - that isn't necessarily wrong, it is hard to be alone in a partner obsessed world, but years "alone" really means years being with YOU in an age and time that you will never have again. Women being alone and choosing themselves is such a new choice for most of us compared to our lineages, and to be able to make that choice and not have people thinking we are wasting away by being "alone" is so important - we are getting sacred time with OURSELVES. I feel like I have the rest of my life to be with someone else. If i am never alone in my 20s or 30s and then get a divorce when I am 50 due to unforeseen circumstances, I don't want to have to learn to be alone then!!! I just think we put so much emphasis on time and being young and in love, biological clocks etc, it's all part of the design, but our perfect paths are our perfect paths and we will always get what is needed.
this, this, this, forever!! thank you.
Phew, so glad I'm not the only one going "oh no I disagree with HH actually".
Say what you will about Gottman, but contempt being the relationship killer is something I've found absolutely true. I tried to "keep an open mind" and accept the straight man tax etc for many relationships and you know what, it was really bad for me and REALLY bad for them, because even if you're trying, they can feel it, you know?
And then I met my husband, and while he has plenty of classic Smart Straight White Guy traits (why is there so much hair in the bathroom if you just cleaned it), at the end of the day he is so smart and so curious and so kind and I fundamentally go, HOW DID I GET SO LUCKY??
I don't feel like you feel that way about this guy, OP. Who cares how he is as a person - you don't have to figure out his objective Goodness Rating, it's a question of how he's a match for you.
I totally agree. I've known way too many pseudo-intellectual dipshits, and this guy sounds exactly like them. If you're going to be a snob about how interesting and smart you are, you need to actually be smart and interesting. AND he can't even wipe a toilet seat? (At 40 years old??) And he's been divorced twice? His ex-wives clearly decided the Straight Guy Tax was not worth paying for this guy. I would run for the hills, personally.
I dramatically underestimated how offensive the piss-poor peeing aim would generally be. I thought I was being inconsiderate and overly critical (e.g., I don't have a penis, maybe it's difficult!). That said: I did not confront him about it because I was TERRIFIED of embarrassing him. I'll call someone out on their language, but not their urinary malfeasance! :)
omg YOU are not being inconsiderate at all!! He is being really inconsiderate!! I asked my husband (since I also don't have a penis lol) and he said that consistently leaving a mess means he's an inconsiderate pig. I think the reason this got such a big reaction is that a lot of us have dealt with brothers/ dads/ boyfriends who have done that, and it's honestly a sign of selfishness/ cleanliness issues. He either thinks it's fine to make you clean up after him (like you're a maid) or he "doesn't even see it" (like a lousy sitcom husband). Is he considerate of you in other areas? Does he always leave his socks everywhere, or "not notice" a sink full of dirty dishes? I think your instincts are right and that you deserve SO much better! You sound great and shouldn't be stuck cleaning up after him or wincing at his classist/ elitist comments. (My parents are also blue collar so I would not have appreciated that comment either!)
thank you, thank you, for your kindness. and thank your husband for his perspective! to answer your question- i don't live with him so we haven't encountered the socks/dishes together.
You're so welcome! If this were real life, we'd go to brunch and all the girls would be APPALLED on your behalf and telling you you deserve way way better than that! And ok, that makes sense, I wonder if he's one of those guys that's perfectly capable until their gf/ wife moves in, and suddenly they forgot how to clean or do laundry. (This may be way off base, but with the two divorces and gross bathroom habits it made me wonder. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't apply!) Sending you good thoughts - I hope things go well, whatever you decide! <3
It’s not that difficult-my 5 year old pretty much hits the water every time
He SHOULD be embarrassed and you should not be afraid to call out this shit (or pee as it were). I said in another comment that this is a complete dealbreaker. As soon as I read that part about the pee, I heard the needle ripping off the record and didn't need to read anymore (of course I read the whole thing, it's Heather!). Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It just says sooooo much about a person who can't and won't clean up their pee. Yes it's judgemental and we as women are trained to be accommodating and all that and it's hard to unlearn. I am saying in the strongest terms, we should never accept this and it's completely ok to break up with him over this.
The pee thing is a big deal and Heather seemed to brush past it. Count me as another who didn't particularly love her response to this letter.
Anyway, I just watched two episodes of this podcast about dating and finding your person, maybe you'll gain some helpful insight? I don't know if you're looking for marriage (I'm not) but they were still interesting to listen to. https://youtu.be/lGRnaWySoUw?si=GEzUEcYMuHS63gzu
https://youtu.be/pVi2vhrMDUc?si=SoRxDo8Od4N5se5r
Thank you for your thoughtful response! I have limited knowledge of Gottman, but I agree with the contempt sentiment. Also: I'm glad that you got so lucky (really!). It's heartening. I think I have been trying to figure out an "objective Goodness Rating" as you say, instead of focusing more on what works well for me in a relationship. It does seem a little obvious, now, with hindsight. I've been trying to collect data to make a decision instead of thinking about how the relationship dynamics FEEL to me.
I am a 63 year old guy. Far from every woman's dreamboat. I have my good and my bad qualities. But the idea that I would pee on a place where I know my female partner has to sit daily to go to the bathroom *and not clean us after myself* is something I can't wrap my head around. That's not a "we like different kinds of books or movies or people to be friends with" kind of problem. It's not a "live and let live" problem. It's an "either you sit on my urine or your clean it up" problem. It's an "extremely minimal, basic hygiene and consideration" ask. When I was college age, I shared apartments with male friends, we never would have done or tolerated have this being done to us. For me, this is the reddest of flags.
Also agree. My husband has plenty of classic guy traits but I have never once gone UGH WHY ARE MEN at any of his nonsense. As our career fields overlap I know several extremely similar men who induce that reaction in me for almost identical behaviour. Because I just don't like those other guys.
Agreeee. I think you’d find little things annoying about any partner of any gender. But if they lead you to constantly question if you break up…. It might bc you just don’t like or love your partner all that much (or possibly those little things are actually big things that you’re playing down). Either way….
I’m laughing. So true that they can feel you ~trying to accept~ the straight man tax haha it’s a lose lose
I agree! She doesn’t value his good traits that’s on her. She does have contempt for him. Not gonna work.
Last night, I woke up every few hours agonizing about how I should end the relationship, so imagine my surprise to see that my letter to Polly was answered and in my inbox this morning. A letter that I hastily wrote and sent and immediately felt like I did a poor job explaining and gave even poorer examples? I considered sending an amendment, but decided against it, thinking that the broad questions have been answered over and over, and I should invest instead in figuring out my own feelings, instead of asking a very familiar stranger. A very familiar stranger who, shortly after I sent the email, posted "I'm Overthinking My Overthinking Again." And I found clarity in it, specifically (I can't figure out how to link it, so I'll paste):
"Overthinking everything is often a side effect of not knowing how you feel — or not standing up for your feelings once you discover what they are. Maybe your parents treated your emotions as wildly inconvenient or taxing or irrational, so you wound up trying to talk yourself out of every desire you had. And after decades of talking yourself out of your emotions, it becomes extremely difficult to interpret the meaning of any sensation...Your body pays the price. Instead of enjoying your felt experience, you live inside your head, which is always making random noise like a rattle full of beads."
I need to get over my shock at the timing and also still digest Polly's response to my ACTUAL letter. But thank you--for responding. I do come off like a snobby arrogant hypocrite who is blind to her own flaws. I can only say that it takes a lot for me to get out of my head and feel things, and I don't know that I am able to feel in this relationship--both because of my own reservations but also because the his emotional depth and vulnerability doesn't present in a way I can understand, where I can FEEL instead of think think think all the time....
I am processing and appreciating the comments. Thank you.
This is the only Ask Polly response that I've not fully engaged with. I disagree with her reading of your letter. She has some interesting insights and possibilities. AND I think you know what being in a relationship with straight white men is like. You aren't a novice. I think if it were a match then you'd be able to navigate the inherent issues. If it were a match, his reading true crime novels would be tolerable if not mildly endearing or something to tease him about. When it's not a match and you can't quite put your finger on why, these annoyances, concerns, or "yellow flags" just get magnified. A year is a long time to not be sure if you're in love.
I am grateful for your perspective here, and I appreciate the "grace" you've given in that you recognize I'm not a novice or unfamiliar with straight white guys. It is becoming clear that I may have been focusing on these "flaws" not because they were THE PROBLEM, but because I was trying to explain my lack of engagement in the relationship, to justify the way I have been feeling. Thank you.
My first instinct upon reading the original letter is that being divorced twice is RED FLAG, not a yellow one. Regardless of a person's gender, if someone I loved was dating a twice-divorcee, I would be deeply concerned that my loved one was signing up to be #3.
Agreed. Especially freshly divorced. Still getting divorced. Straight into a relationship mid divorce.
I know someone who got married young, got divorced a year later, and rebounded right into another marriage, this time with a close friend. They amicably divorced after a year. Then he spent the next 25 years working on himself, so when he did marry again, it was for all the right reasons.
If I were in LW's shoes, I would want to know a great deal about the previous relationships/divorces not from an insecure standpoint but simply because it is very very important to know how he views the relationships (is it entirely the other person's fault? etc); what has he learned; has he implemented what he's learned; how are the kids coping etc.
Really? I was in three marriages (two trad, one common in-law) before meeting and moving in with the fella I've been extremely happy with for 24 years. I'm still friends with my first husband, the father of my grown-up kids. My other two both died in the last couple of years, and we remained amicable. Luckily it never occurred to me for an instant that I was a bad bet as a partner. I came of age in the late 60s though - perhaps we hippies were less transactional.
While I think that the culture these days is generally transactional (and Boomers have very much steered the culture in this direction, since they’ve been in power since the 80s), I don’t understand how being hesitant to date someone twice-divorced has anything to do with being transactional. Could you explain?
I have to agree; the questioner doesn't seem snobbish or perfectionistic to me. Her white male partner does sound like (I am an academic however) a certain type of comfortable person in academia -- mostly a conformist, and kind of intellectually lazy, but needs to signal for career or ego or just long entrenched reasons, intellectual curiosity and the right kind of politics. He probably believes what he says, but has never bothered to work out the contradictions. And likely acts out those contradictions. That can be really annoying, and is a characteristic generally divorced from conflict management skills, which it sounds like he has. You can be a little boring, a little hypocritical, and be sensitive to others and atune to emotions to a large degree; as long as those hypocrisies and the conflict do not encroach on each other. What if he meets her blue collar parents? What would he do? I think that and whether she can accept this guy is full of shit a good 20% of the time is the ultimate test for the relationship. There's no need to rationalize him as 'free-spirited' or able to embrace his own flaws and her as perfectionistic. She doesn't have to be wrong about him at all...
Yes, yes..
If you're agonizing about trying to get out of this relationship, I think that says everything. This guy might not be The Worst™️ but he doesn't seem to be for you. Also a man at his big big age still leaving pee all over the toilet seat is a huge turn off. He might be better for a while (if you pester him enough). But in my experience, people who aren't considerate of others are unlikely to change long term. Do you still want to be wiping up his pee in 5 years? 10 years?
I said this in another comment, but I really didn't think the pee would be such a hot topic! HAHA.
The pee is not just a red flag, it's the blinking "Do Not Proceed" sign
Maria, trust yourself. PLEASE. As wise as HH is, she's not psychic and CANNOT know if he really is one of your soulmates and she will not have to live with the consequences if he isn't and you stay in a relationship that erodes away at your soul and dignity.
I don't know him or you so I cannot be an authority either, but based on what you describe in your letter and in the comments, his behaviours smack of gaslighting and a snobbish disregard of other people's integrity.
Only you have the contextual information to know if that's true for you though.
The perfect partner does not exist, agreed. But I think you already knew that and that that isn't the lesson you need to learn in this situation. I think you're 100% right that it's likely to be more about not overthinking your feelings and trusting them instead!
Your rage is telling you something, but you've been censoring it trying to have what you think an enlightened attitude looks like. Ironically, that tends to take you further away from it. Instead, if you haven't already, consider expressing your anger fully, listening to it, even if privately or with someone else other than your partner. It may lead you away from him, but also may surprise you and lead you back. Either way, you'll have become more YOURSELF. PRICELESS.
In my experience, no relationship can give you that and no relationship can be truly happy without it.
Good luck!
“Your rage is telling you something, but you've been censoring it trying to have what you think an enlightened attitude looks like.” This spoke directly to me!! Love this whole response
Thank you. I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I think it's a great suggestion to express anger fully. I have been trying to be enlightened and open, and to not throw away someone who is not bad for what I was concerned were "squirmy" reasons. Thank you.
Oh, I get this, but please: let yourself dump someone for squirmy reasons! If they're your squirmy reasons, however snobby or whatever they are, they're legit. And they may be the superficial manifestation of bigger, non-squirmy reasons. If you feel fundamentally that he's not the right guy for you - and it could be for no better reason than he likes green nail polish - you're allowed to act on that. You can dump somebody for ridiculous reasons if it doesn't feel right.
Another point that Heather/Polly made which I think is important - the role of grief in how you're feeling. And I'm so sorry about your parents' deaths, particularly because they died not far apart, and it sounds like in traumatizing ways. Losing one parent, at any age, is hard. Losing two like that must be terrible.
I heard somewhere that you shouldn't make any big life decisions for a year while you're grieving. But I broke up with my boyfriend a month or so after my father died - his death actually showed me that life's too short to be in a not-great relationship (mind you, we had much bigger problems than you and your boyfriend seem to). And I am glad about that decision.
As Heather says, only you can know the answer. But it does seem like there are some genuine issues of concern here - and that you may be discounting your feelings about them because you see them as not OK.
I usually mainly agree with the responses to the letters, but this one seemed a little off to me. It seemed like Heather was responding to each of the complaints taken individually instead of letting it inform a larger whole. Yes, none of these instances is a dealbreaker on its own. But I don't think that you're wrong in thinking that they could point to something deeper.
I will admit that I'm biased - I ended a relationship with a person who seems a little bit like your partner, also at about the one year mark. In a lot of ways, he was good - kind, reliable, etc. But he was careless and thoughtless in a way that only became apparent over time. Part of the reason it wasn't immediately obvious is because he was in the habit of saying thoughtful-sounding phrases. Even if it wasn't his intention, I don't think that he was accurately reflecting who he truly was as a person.
For example, one time he said, "An unexamined life isn't worth living." Expecting a deep, revealing conversation to follow, I asked "What makes life worth living for you?" And he responded - with no self-awareness whatsoever - "Oh, I don't know." And he shrugged. That was it. That was the whole conversation.
"...it seems that some of his ideas are more performative than reflective and internalized."
Please pay attention to this. It's important. What good is having any conversation, if your partner doesn't actually mean what he says? Ultimately, I left the relationship mainly because I just felt like he was impossible to get to know. He didn't know himself, so I couldn't get to know him. I couldn't put any weight on the things he would say, even when I wanted to, and that's no way to live.
Ultimately, only you can decide if you think that your partner's traits add up to something or if they are one-off instances.
EDIT: I realized that I left out the best part. After I broke up with the guy above, I went on to date several more people before I found my current boyfriend. My current boyfriend isn't 100% perfect, but he is thoughtful and he listens and he genuinely cares about people. He's curious and intellectual and intentional about what he says. It turns out that all of the things that people told me were unrealistic about straight, white men aren't unrealistic after all. I cannot tell you how comfortable and, frankly, relaxing it is to be with someone who already has a real stance on many important issues. AND - get this - HE IS A SECONDARY TEACHER.
Oh my goodness. How can I begin here. First: thank you. I was definitely pulling the pieces together as a whole and concerned with what seemed to me to be incongruities between who he was TELLING me he was and how he ACTUALLY IS when he's not paying super close attention. I didn't mention this in the letter, but his carelessness and thoughtlessness have become more and more apparent over time as he has relaxed. I also have eerily similar concerns as you did in your previous, now-defunct relationship.
Second: you DID save the best for last! I'm so happy that you found your current boyfriend. I don't want to believe that it's unrealistic, and I'm glad that you have literal proof! :) That he is a secondary teacher just...ooof. Thank you, dear.
"...incongruities between who he was TELLING me he was and how he ACTUALLY IS when he's not paying super close attention."
Not to be alarmist, but I honestly think that this is one of the biggest red flags for long-term compatibility. You need to be confident in who someone is in order to really care about them and commit to them. Like you, we had never said 'I love you' and there seemed to be some emotional distance between us. It finally clicked when there were finally enough examples of this incongruence for me to point to and think, "I don't feel like I know this person, so of course I can't really love him deeply."
If your guy is a good partner in other ways, do you think it would be worthwhile to talk to him directly about this? If he knows that this kind of carelessness is making you have doubts, maybe he can make a better effort to be thoughtful in his communications.
Marie, you deserve better. The way his mask slips as he relaxes into this is a red flag, not a yellow one. My ex started off seeming one thing and becoming another once it was too late for me to get out. And the pee on the seat? Is he FIVE? That is a dealbreaker. He’s testing how much of his bullshit you’ll put up with, subconsciously or consciously. You deserve someone thoughtful and curious, someone who IS who he SAYS he is. They exist. I married one, second time around. Let this fish wriggle back into the ocean.
"What good is conversation if youR partner doesn't actually mean what he says?" YES!
If you're constantly overthinking, I think you SHOULD break up with him. I know a big difficulty with not growing up with a secure attachment style, you're constantly wondering if your feelings are coming from a place of avoidance, or if it's genuinely a problem. But I think there's a difference between the straight man tax, and someone saying off-color shit and then claiming to be a liberal. Him using pussy as an insult, and then apologizing because "I shouldn't be using that around you" and then saying or example, he was talking about secondary teachers and he said, "They're not really as smart as you would think they'd be. They’re really not interested in learning or critical thought. They're just blue collar, simple people." ...that's not great. At the end of the day, it's what the original commentaro said about her husband. It's ALL ABOUT RATIOS. There's something to be said about ambivalence, how ambivalence occurs when we go through so, so much pain, have avoidant attachment styles, etc. etc.
But like, imagine you weren't avoidant. Pretend for one second you're one of those magically securely attached people. Take the complicating factor of your attachment style out of the picture. Would you still be able to tolerate these flaws? Or is your secure self also someone who dislikes these tiny red flags? Just trust your feelings, OP, even though I know your feelings led you astray a lot in the past. If you continue to suffer and struggle and agonize, then break up with him. Maybe you'll feel regret and then agonize over whether you made the right decision. But just trust yourself--I don't think your eyes are cloudy here. I think they're perfectly clear, but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings.
I could very well be wrong about all of this. Ultimately you're the one stuck with your emotional storms. But there's a difference between ambivalence and agony.
YES--totally. I am always concerned that I'm acting avoidant, or that my interpretation is entirely wrong. I appreciate you calling out what was the most troubling about the "pussy" comment--that he followed it with "I shouldn't use that AROUND YOU." It was actually one of the things that started my wheels spinning, because I thought: Who are you, really? And what parts of you are being presented as a performance FOR ME?
Thank you, very much for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts. I am so grateful. Also: WHAT THE FUCK is this beauty??: "I don't think your eyes are cloudy here. I think they're perfectly clear, but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings." THANK YOU. :)
Yeah! Like, maybe this is my social justice warrior Gen Z self talking, but like...there's a difference between being driven by sexism in ways you can't understand, and saying a gendered slur. Getting language to be "politically correct" is one of the most basic things people learn, and while there's plenty, PLENTY of people who are politically correct as well as assholes, it's kind of concerning he says he's a liberal, but he doesn't even understand not to say something like using pussy as an insult. Makes me concerned he does gladly use it around men. An actual example of being driven by sexism in subtle ways? I have so much rage and buried disdain towards my mother, and while a lot of it is due to past childhood abuse, I can mimick the highly criticial ways my father treated my mom (I'm her daughter) when I'm feeling stressed and therefore judgmental. That's an actual way people can absorb sexism, which I'm digging through.
Like...I think the reason you have so much agony as someone said in another comment thread--this guy isn't insensitive just because he's a white straight guy and culture adores him. He's insensitive because he straight up doesn't appear to have done the surface level work of digging for unconscious prejudices (calling secondary teachers having no critical thinking? hello???? those people are in the TRENCHES!!), and even if you point it out, and he apologizes, like...that's just treating the symptom. The cause being he doesn't appear to have seriously done work to dig out societal biasess. You're worried you don't actually know this guy, as another comment thread you had with someone else just said, and that's causing you suffering. You can have a serious talk with him, but ultimately I just really want you to know--I don't think you're being avoidant. I think you're noticing a possible dealbreaker that even secure people would be a little icked about.
Also thank you for the compliment about that line, hahaha. I hope you find peace with whatever decision you make. But my best advice? If you keep agonizing for another two months, just break up with him. Even if Polly is right, and this is all from your avoidance, fantasy of perfection...I don't think it would be good for you to try to sort out that complicated emotional shit in the middle of dating him. Ultimately, PLEASE make a decision that isn't based on a self-doubting narrative because you don't trust your feelings anymore due to your past avoidance. That's no good for you
One thing I struggled with was this early feeling that my partner did and said all the right feminist things, had the lesbian pals etc. And it was all performative. He LOVED having their esteem––much more than he loved me being confident, empowered or healed. In the end, the mask fell off and I saw that his identification with feminists was that he felt victimized (as it turns out, by smart women).
OMG I dated this guy!
This comment section is full of such great writers. “A paint bucket of clouds” 🥹
"...but then you dip your hand into a paint bucket of clouds and smear them over your gaze because you've been taught to distrust your gut feelings." What a beautiful phrase! And yes, I agree with your observation here.
It's usually not the big things that make people incompatible, it's the little things adding up into a thousand paper cuts. I think you should consider looking at him as objectively as you can, through his actions rather than his words or how he tries to portray himself. It doesn't matter what he thinks of himself and tells you about himself, pay attention to your own observations of his actions and behaviors. 2 divorces is indeed a red flag. Can someone have so little self-awareness to get divorced TWICE? It might not be a dealbreaker for everyone but it's a dealbreaker for me, and maybe it would be for you as well.
For the record, I do NOT agree with Polly’s response to you, and I do NOT think you come off as a snobby, arrogant hypocrite. I do NOT think you are overreacting or overthinking. In fact, I think you’re being quite reasonable with reasonable expectations, and that Polly’s response is actually a bit unreasonable and she’s making excuses for men and asking you to do the work on yourself instead asking them to do the work on themselves. No, straight men do not get a pass in the name of “well, this is just how straight men are *shrug*.” Obviously, we feminists don’t all agree, so it really comes down to you doing what you feel is right for you no matter our feedback. But, I wanted to tell you that I disagree with her for what it’s worth.
Hmmmmmm. I think women need to trust their instincts more. Personally, I would pay attention to your radar and tiny red flags. To me his pee all over the toilet is likely not unconscious. It's a weird way of pissing on you....testing your boundaries. He's been acting like he is testing your boundaries with comments too. Any average guy I know would be embarrassed to leave pee on his girlfriend's toilet. If you aren't really feeling enthusiastic about this guy, listen to yourself. So many want to tell us we are too picky. That attitude is dismissive. My guilt over being too picky, my tendency to think it was all my fault precipitated many years of distress. I don't recommend not trusting what you see and hear....
YES. Whether or not he’s even aware of it he is seeing what he can get away with before they get more serious. If he does this in your house when it’s fairly easy to break up with him, just imagine what he’ll do when you uproot an hour to live with him 🤢
I agree wholeheartedly
Eh, I did not like this response. It was paragraphs of negging her for having standards and not settling, and then:
“Now that you feel small and humble, who do you feel drawn to?”
If she’s not feeling it, she’s not feeling it. End of story.
Polly’s response was beautiful but I couldn’t shake my initial reaction to LW; that she simply didn’t want to be with this man enough to be with him. It seemed like she actually agreed with Polly, that he’s a catch and that maybe the icks were not so meaningful… perhaps this is just me but a year together seems like a long time to “maybe” feel like you’re falling in love?
Thank you for your insight--I didn't realize that came across in the letter!
Is a year a long time to "maybe" feel like you could fall in love with someone? I honestly don't know anymore. To clarify: I rushed into declarations of love since age 13 and in this relationship, I wanted to be cautious (he was still married after all), and also to think about what loving someone means vs. the mad rush of saying it and hearing it. We have not uttered "love" words or feelings and while there is affection and tenderness to some degree, there are no sweet nothings or cute intimacies or expressions of feeling. I am normally expressive to some degree in a relationship, but have kind of adapted to his lack of emotional expression and tendency toward irony vs. vulnerability.
"We have not uttered "love" words or feelings and while there is affection and tenderness to some degree, there are no sweet nothings or cute intimacies or expressions of feeling. I am normally expressive to some degree in a relationship, but have kind of adapted to his lack of emotional expression"
Girl, I don't usually say this but DUMP HIM. This sounds miserable!!! Please don't lock yourself in a relationship box where sweetness and emotional expression are not allowed.
It makes me think about that Aimee Mann/Til Tuesday song, "Voices Carry" which is about a relationship where one person makes rules of emotional silence, and the other person follows those rules, even though they hate it.
If you are going to be in a relationship with another flawed human (which is, as Polly points out, ALL relationships) you really need all the kindness and laughter and sweet nothings and in-joke's and stupid pet names you can get. You need moments where your partner is genuinely trying to express their love for you, even though they're embarrassed and it feels dumb and vulnerable.
To stick with the 80s songs, a good long-term relationship isn't "Voices Carry". It's a combination of Bryan Adam's "Heaven" and Men Without Hats' "Safety Dance". Both sincere and silly. You deserve that. :-)
Ohh my goodness, a Til Tuesday reference! (Until recently, one of my best friends and I heard the lyrics to that song as "This is scary"!) Thank you. I feel such gratitude for the variety of perspectives even as it feels incredibly surreal to be the topic of response. I fully agree with the need for sincerity and silliness, and dumb, vulnerable embarrassing expressions. Thank you :)
Also for what it's worth, I think you are SO brave and thoughtful, coming here and engaging with the comments section. That takes a lot of courage and emotional integrity! I hope you feel cared for and supported! Whether we all agree or disagree, I know everyone here is wishing the best for you. :-)
Hm well I’ll say what I’ve found to be true for me, and then I’ll do some general pontificating haha
For me: whenever I’m having a conversation with myself about a relationship that sounds like “maybe I’m just not feeling xyz yet because I need more time / I need more information / maybe I’m being judgemental or avoidant etc”… I only wind up finding out very concretely that this person is not for me. When I’m falling in love, these conversations with myself don’t happen, even if I remain cautious and keep tabs on behaviour that might make someone a bad match, even as I notice and am peeved about little things that irritate me. I think this is because… I’d really like to love someone! So when a lot of things are right on paper, I hate accepting that the mysterious feelings thing just isn’t happening. Aaaand if I was with someone for a year and they weren’t definitely in love with me… I’d give them a hug and take my toothbrush out of their bathroom and I’d be on my merry way.
General pontificating: I’m certain there is a beautiful, deeply loving, decades long relationship out there where neither person has ever said “I love you”. I’m sure there are people who do say I love you, who are deeply in love, who at first felt ambivalent about the person they’re with, maybe for years. At the risk of sounding like the kind of fantasist Polly warns about, I’m going to refer to one of my favourite films, Sleepless in Seattle: I am actually so in love with Bill Pullman’s character in that movie (noisy sleep mask, allergies, and all), and over time, I’ve come to understand Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks’ characters as kind of weirdos about love! I think it’s a movie about two people being the same kind of weirdo about love, and that’s why they’re supposed to be together. I think challenging ourselves, being self-aware, and trying to grow are all wonderful, worthy lifelong pursuits. I also think part of love might be… just accepting which kind of love weirdo you are haha I think there’s a part of that which is outside of our control, maddeningly. Maybe you are the kind of person for whom the path to love is supposed to be a beautiful long road where you’re questioning things but something lovely is quietly, slowly growing alongside that. There is nothing wrong with that, if so. But also, maybe how quickly you fell in love in those other relationships wasn’t the reason they didn’t work out. I get it — that’s also maddening!
Oh Marie - no! This sounds awful and also, strangely empty. Please don’t settle for this!
I went on a date recently with a guy who very clearly was a busybody - I could just tell, and he admitted it as much to me, telling me "I nag a bit." And he had already started doing it to me. For example, when I told him I was going to a particular social event that night, he nodded disapprovingly and said, "I guess that's ok. How late do you stay at those things?" Also mentioning something like, "Why did you pay for an Uber to get here, when you could have just gotten on the Metro?"
My inner voice immediately said, "Someone is going to love the shit out of this guy some day, but it's not for me." I just know that this is not the type of flaw that I can tolerate in a relationship, or at least when I'm aware of it so early, one I want to avoid. The fact that I said "someone is going to love the shit out of this guy someday," though, made me think I'm maturing a bit. I saw this flaw as simply something I can't tolerate rather than an existential flaw of him as a person.
On the other hand, I have dated many guys who friends later pointed out to me were "one uppers." You know, the kind of person who can't ever let you have a good story or the spotlight without jumping in with something bigger, or better, or worse that has happened to them. It makes me roll my eyes and I get a bit annoyed, but it's something I can live with. Other people would go running for the hills; for me, it's something I can live with. I can handle an attention seeker; I can't handle someone trying to control my every move.
I think we all have to (hopefully quickly, otherwise we will always be alone) figure out what we can live with, and what we can't. Only this emailer knows if this quality works for her or not. Like Polly, my sense is that she can.
Also, Polly, thanks for affirming my laziness lol. We are all animals. Have you ever seen a lion in the wild? They spend 95% of their time laying around, and 5% of their time roaring. That's how I like to look at it. :)
Love this!
Glad you like it! I also try to step back and think of it in terms of a job. (It's obviously not that, but thinking about a relationship like a job is sometimes helpful to sober up.) We put up with a lot of shit - annoying hours, people you don't like, boring work - because at the end of the day it deeply supports our well-being and if we're lucky, we love it at the end of the day or it at least helps us support something we love (a hobby, a side passion, or just good 'ol fashioned self-care).
I LOVE how Hillary Clinton writes in her new book about why she stayed with Bill Clinton during the affair years. She said she many times thought she was going to leave, but she kept coming back to the question, "Do I still love him? Are we good together?" And the answer was always yes. And she tells a beautiful story about how after she lost the election in 2016, she and Bill shut out the world and laid in bed and he took care of her in such a kind way. She said she was glad that she had a lifelong husband in that moment. Had she left him, she wouldn't have had that experience.
This made me feel affirmed, because honestly for me some wandering eyes and a huge reckless decision, I think, wouldn't be a super big deal breaker for me either. Totally understand it is for some people though.
This is the first Polly letter that I think I strongly disagree with.
She made some good points and did make me reflect for a while but ultimately assuming LW didn’t exaggerate too much in her descriptions I do not trust this man at all.
I think he’s slowly testing LW to see how much disrespect she’ll take or how much she’s willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Many such men don’t actually view women as people and that’s why our arguments don’t really bother them or why they’re able to be so self assured. He doesn’t feel challenged by her (ex. The blue collar comment) and is only looking to adapt his phrasing to keep her at bay rather than actually reflect on anything and grow. And if he’s too busy with his 2 kids to grow then take one thing off his plate and leave him.
Oof! Thank you! I see exactly where you are going here, and while I don't think he's as malicious as it could possibly seem, I do think there is an adaption of phrasing vs. reflecting and growing. I like your sharp response! Thank you.
It sounds like you want this man to think the way you do, to have exactly the same values, opinions, and preferences. Like Polly, I wouldn’t date you, either - expecting someone to thank you (!!) for correcting their wrong opinion sounds so insanely controlling and arrogant. (Btw the foundation of intellectualism is critique, so mayyyybe your discomfort with someone not aligning with your worldview means you aren’t the intellectual you believe you are?)
If you don’t really like this man but are relying on him for support for your current health issues and grief over your parents, do him a favor and leave.
That’s the way I felt too, that he is testing the LW. It’s not the same as having flaws and being up front about them.
OH LW MARIE!!!!! I FEEL LIKE YOU FROM AN ALTERNATE FUTURE!!!!!! This vibed with me deeply:
"Further, it seems like I tend to choose men in two categories: those who are really into me (and I am kind of into them) or those who are indifferent to me (and I REALLY want them to change their minds)."
And in my experience, being someone at least a little similar to you, THE RELATIONSHIP FLAW THAT CANNOT BE OVERCOME IS THAT "WINCE" YOU FEEL WHEN SOMEONE SAYS OR DOES SOMETHING AND IT JUST SEEMS.... uncool.
I'm not using the word "cool" lightly. I think finding your partner cool is sacred. And continuing to find your partner cool even after being through the shit with them and you've both given a lot to each other and seen each other at your worst is maybe, to me, what love is.
Finding your partner cool consists of moments and long stretches of time when they seem amazing, and also a COMPARATIVELY SMALL number of times when you sort of suck your teeth and say "oof" on their behalf. You describe two types of moments:
"some days I think oh my gosh, I think I could really be falling in love with him. And then he says something ridiculous, or he pushes his opinion into something he knows nothing about, or he gets pee all over my toilet (honestly, he's the only dude I’ve met who does this, or at least doesn't notice and clean it off?), and I think: What the fuck am I doing?"
That is EXACTLY how I think about love and relationships, and to me, the ratio in your relationship sounds off.
It's that little "ouch." The little moment of your soul not diving into his but instead holding back and going.... "oof."
It's not about ANY quality he possesses, it's how you FEEL about him.
I PERSONALLY FIND my husband to be "appropriate in manner and apprehension" (to be Jane Austen about it) ALL the time, brilliantly gifted in expression VERY often (like I wish I could have that on tape), and UNCOOL in expression very close to never. Less than any man I've ever met and perhaps as infrequently as it is possible for a straight cisgender man to do. Infrequently enough that when it happens, I greet it as a glorious reminder of how little it happens and how happy I am that I waited.
I BROKE UP with everyone I felt that way too often about, and I'm so, so happy I did. I am so, so happy with my husband.
And to Polly's overall point of desiring forgiveness and understanding in a relationship, and to be with someone who doesn't nitpick, YOU CAN HAVE BOTH. In fact, what I think what characterizes all my best relationships is an ACTUALLY WIERD RATIO of how discerning I think the other person is, and how smart they think I am. It feels a bit blessed and amazing that someone whose taste is as good as my husband's is also finds me to be the most brilliant person in the world. It's like a demanding ski slope that you're somehow super, super good at. Like discovering you're strong in The Force.
Truly, it is ALL ABOUT THE RATIOS.
Oh Pigeon! I feel such affection for you, right from the start. Thank you, thank you. For taking the time to respond, and to share your wisdom. I am on board with this concept of the "WINCE" and finding your partner to be cool (or having deep respect for them) is sacred, and important. Everyone says dumb shit (I SAY DUMB SHIT ALL THE TIME!!!) I do not think that everyone would think that I am "cool" - but certain people do. I fully agree; the ratio IS off. I kept arguing with myself like: but is it really? let me ask my friends...let me reach out to Ask Polly (and, by extension, the Ask Polly substack community), perhaps my eyes are cloudy? While I identified myself as a snob, I am also pretty full of self-doubt, even regarding the things I am snobbish about.
Thank you. I am in a sort of awe at the way you've described both your marriage and your relationship and the RATIOS, and I love thinking that you are me from an alternate future. I am happy for you, and for your appropriate in manner and apprehension, cool as fuck husband. I am happy that you are happy. Thank you.
How did you meet your husband? Do you have any advice for how women in their 20s should go about meeting men?
I met mine on OKCupid, (which is also the main way I met people in my 20s, with bars and parties as a distant second. When you go to a bar to meet men you should say "I'm waiting for a friend" when guys ask what you're doing there. A cool older girl taught me that.) I didn't meet my husband until I was 38, so even more than meeting people, the skill that helped me most was getting good at breaking up with them, so I could be free to one day meet him.
I also had to be ready, inside, to settle down. I *WANTED* to be ready sooner, or at least, I was getting worried that there was something wrong with me not being ready, that I was going to "miss out" or "end up alone" because I was "too picky." Now I think you can't fake readiness, and you also don't have to. It's just as wonderful to fall in love at 38 as it is at 25. You know a lot more about yourself.
bless you pigeon ! <3
Omg thank you so much. Your bit about readiness is the pearl of wisdom I need. I beat myself up for years for being anxious about dating. I think I simply didn't want to go but was pressuring myself. Then there was a break in the clouds and I calmed down and I very soon after met my (ex) boyfriend.
loved reading abt yourexperiences Pigeon. did you feel ready to settle down before you met your husband or did the strength of your connection help tame your previous ambivalence?
“Once you stop living behind a veil of sadness and shame, you’ll be able to put down your defenses and let him in. That’s where a solid love starts: on undefended territory, where you can both admit that you are just imperfect humans who make bad choices over and over and there’s no real way around it.”
This is so beautiful and so true. After 54 years, my husband’s flaws are the same flaws he had when he was 19. And I suspect my flaws are the same too. I reckon he’s OCD, he reckons I’m a slob. He reads crime novels and loves Aston Villa. I sulk ostentatiously when the commentary is on the radio every flipping weekend and weeknights too. He’s a bloke. I didn’t imagine myself with a bloke, but with some kind of hunky Renaissance prince. But we fell into it and then we signed up for it. Love isn’t the be all and end all of a relationship, it’s the mortar that keeps it all together. Once you let love in, without judgment or doubt, you can stop that constant mental assessment of whether this person ‘deserves’ your love.
HUNKY RENAISSANCE PRINCE. Oh my god, such perfect words!!!
I appreciate your and Polly's perspective here about flaws, but I am curious about how your bloke responds to your ostentatious sulking about his sports commentary being on each night? Has it become a form of playful affection, or does he shut down, close off and become angry about it?
There is a big difference between being lighthearted and honest about flaws in a relationship where honesty and open communication is valued, even when it leans toward the critical, and those kind of expressions landing like a knife in someone's heart...
Oh that’s a good question. At some point in our relationship this tension slipped from being a genuine conflict to being more of a game, a ritual in which we each acknowledge the balance of give and take between us. It may have been after we had gone through a particularly difficult period (and I believe all longtime relationships have these) in which we were both put to the test and at which point we both decided that we were better off staying together than falling apart. Once through that trial by fire, in which we forgave each other fairly major things, and understood that we had grown up together and understood each other better than anyone else could, it became easier to forgive the small things and weave them into the fabric of our lives going forward. It would just be fake to be all sunshine and roses all the time. We have to give space to our differences. Thank you for asking because it has been clarifying for me to try to put this into words.
Excellent advice. My husband and I went through something similar and it's really good when that feeling is mutual.
And yeah, tell him to sit and point it down. A pedestal toilet isn’t for target practice.
I feel like this is genuinely an “is the dress black/blue or white/gold” situation. I thought Polly’s advice rang true as someone who struggles to quiet the nagging voice of doubt in new relationships, similar to LW. I also feel like a lot of the comments are falling into the trap of not being able to listen to advice they don’t want to hear. Realistically, many people are unpartnered, not by choice, but because they’re tethered to a narrow view of what perfect looks like. It’s not helpful to be validated when what you need is a wake up call. But the issue here is that we genuinely can’t know what the moment calls for.
It’s so hard to draw the line between settling your anxiety and just plain settling. Retrospectively, it’s easy to identify the signs that doomed a relationship, and I can see a few of those signs in this letter. But from another angle, they’re the ramblings of an overactive critical voice. My therapist used to remind me all the time to see the good in situations and people—to shut up my incontinent brain that couldn’t help being suspicious of anything good. For me that was the right advice, and I think that’s what Heather is alluding to with her talk of soulmates.
All I can say is good luck, dear letter writer! None of us get only one shot at happiness, so keep in mind that this one choice doesn’t seal your fate. You’re gonna be ok however it shakes out.
I couldn't agree more. I think both parties in this situationship have some self-evaluation/reflective-adjustment to do. It's hard to know if either of these people have really stepped "in". We don't know about his potential concerns, but she could start by telling him about how she feels when he doesn't clean up his splatter!
I think THIS should have been the response! More balanced and less prescriptive
I’m kind of confused and disappointed by this advice. Of course no one is perfect, and we should partner with the people who have flaws we can accept, but is everyone really only experiencing straight men who are not self aware, curious and respectful? My father (68), brother (28), brother in law (35), and best friend (34) all manage to have conversations that are intellectually exciting while not pontificating about things they don’t know. They are willing to challenge default prejudices and genuinely change, and update language choices because they take time to understand, and feel genuine empathy.
I’ve met plenty of people who lack these qualities, and I know everyone can have blind spots and act embarrassing sometimes. And of course people who’ve benefited from patriarchy, white supremacy, and financial/educational privilege might be more likely to be lazy about change. But straight men are capable of being better than that.
One thing that I have noticed about these very good men is that they all have suffered in some way because of the standards of our society. Whether it’s poverty, being disabled, or being Indigenous, they’ve dealt with something that our culture punishes. Maybe straight, privileged women need to decide if their partner being white/abled/“handsome”/financially successful is more important than them having self awareness and empathy.
I don’t date cis straight men though, so maybe I just don’t understand why anyone would put up with a “straight man tax”.
I think that the main issue is that historically women have been raised to value empathy, understanding, emotions, and intimate bonds. A lifetime of valuing these things makes them more likely to put effort into developing the relationship skills needed to maintain long-term connections. When they are dating straight men, however, it's just more difficult to find these qualities in a partner.
This creates a lot of dissonance for the women who are unable to find partners with similar values. On the one hand, if they value relationships so much, shouldn't they compromise and be 'realistic' and accept the men they date for how they are (especially since society caused them to be that way)? On the other hand, healthy relationships don't force you to compromise on fundamental issues of values and compatibility. The result is that straight women get a TON of really conflicting messages their whole lives. Letters like this one really show how difficult it is for women to balance what they need in a relationship with what they are realistically able to find.
I get where you're coming from with your third paragraph, but I don't think that it's accurate. Some people channel their suffering into kindness and compassion, but some do not. It's such an individual thing. I cannot tell you how many beautiful women I know who, after being treated poorly, decided to date a guy who was not conventionally attractive, only to then be treated poorly by THAT guy. It's pretty misguided to think that people will have better character just because they're disabled or not white or earn less. People are just people.
I've read Ask Polly and Heather's work for years. I think she missed the mark on this one (and that is totally human)! The dude in question shows traits of an entitled man and it's time to move the fuck on. I've tried to say many men/partners were enough and make it work. Enough. I matter now. I fucking matter now. I think that's what we work to learn throughout our lives, as a counter to patriarchy and culture and white supremacy and the toxic soup that exploits. I don't like him! I don't think you do either and fuck yes to seeking clarity with your one wild and precious life.
I've seen so much harm done by men with well hidden sexist tendencies that I disagree here. I would drop this man.
I understand the impulse to nudge people to be "realistic" about their partners. But, in a sexist, patriarchal society, reality is often depressing and unsatisfying for women. Something can be both very common and also genuinely bad. Being dissatisfied isn't always a sign that someone is unrealistic, or has expectations that are too high, or that they're struggling with intimacy and/or loving themselves.
Kara Loewentheil beautiful and compassionate book 'Take Back Your Brain' is an incredible tonic to the onslaught of "you're being unrealistic" messaging!
I just got that book from the library!
Wow I love that the Heather H. And Kara L. Fan club have converged here. 🥹
I think the framing of snob/simpleton is a red herring, and that what's actually at stake here is integrity. How does the answer differ if the question is: "Does my partner demonstrate enough integrity for me to trust him?"
The examples given show misalignment between her partner's stated beliefs and his actions. She also wonders whether his stated beliefs are, in fact, true, or simply said for her approval; a 'good person with liberal values' mask that he puts on to keep him out of trouble.
"I should have remembered who I was talking to" as a response to being called up on using "pussy" as an insult, is a thinly veiled insult toward the LW. A concession, masked (there's that word again) as self-correction. She seems to wonder at what drives these troubling ways of his - is he just a dude? Is he lazy? Or is he showing entitlement that she knows, on a deep, gut level, will eventually be weaponised against her.
I love that he helped you through difficult times. That's huge. I also love that in disagreements, you both stick with it until you see the other person's side. Does he genuinely engage in the conflict? Or is he adept at saying what he needs to so that peace is restored?
Maybe the deeper dynamics hinted at in the letter can be a genuine and heartfelt conversation that brings you closer than ever. But I don't think these concerns are just you being too judgemental due to fear. That's likely part of it, but sometimes our alarm system goes off for a reason. Ignoring your instincts seems like purposefully blinding yourself so you can better imagine some fantasy future that, as it stands now, may never exist. Perhaps this is your own mask, one you try to hastily tie in place, hopeful that the difficult times can finally be behind you now.
[this turned out a little dark - definitely says more about me than the LW or relationship she's in <3 ]
Thank you for your perspective! I think what you point out is VERY astute: it is exactly about integrity, trust, and congruence with stated beliefs. I framed it snob/simpleton because it was ... easy (I'm a simpleton!).
I also love that he helped me through difficult times--this is what makes the decision of whether to continue in the relationship so difficult. A lot of the comments have mentioned ratios. I don't think you ended up dark at all. I really appreciate your thoughts and insights. Thank you for thoughtfully examining a strangers concerns!
I'm not sure this is helpful, but I wouldn't date a person "finalizing" a divorce. They haven't had time to reflect and regroup. They are often hurt and angry and passive-aggressive afterward. They repeatedly pee on your toilet seat, like a baby. It's amazing what you can overlook in a person you love, and it's amazing what you cannot overlook in a person you don't. Don't feel bad that you don't love this toilet-peeing baby man. You just lost your parents. This is not the time for baby-man. And there ARE others out there -- I love Polly, but I am so tired of women being threatened that they will never find someone else. Half of the hideous, abusive relationships on this planet are because of women being terrified they will NEVER FIND ANYONE ELSE.