“Who taught you that you were nothing?” The Man did. This is the perfect woman in a capitalist world. It makes her a perfect employee, too. When you say prehistoric you mean medieval times. It is important to patriarchy that women feel worthless without the love of a man, any man, even the worst man. And that means father, brother, uncle, priest, employer, etc. because when women value themselves it’s a threat to the status quo.
Sep 5, 2022·edited Sep 5, 2022Liked by Heather Havrilesky
Reading this was profound. I could have written this letter in college - I mean the details of the guy were different, but the feelings involved and the messages I got from him were exactly the same. I wish I could go back and give this response to my 19, 20, 21-year-old self. I've never fully been able to articulate what happened to me at that time in my life - but this was exactly it, everything you laid out so clearly here, Heather. I feel like reading this healed something in me just now.
I can relate to LW, and this experience can fall under one term: codependent (labels aren't always useful but for me they name the problem). My relationships imploded precisely because I'd erased myself so much to give other people what I thought they wanted that I ceased to be a person at all, and it's hard to respect (or engage with) someone who has no regard for herself. I read Demi Moore's memoir "Inside Out" recently, and from perusing the internet it seems to be a more common experience than I'd thought (I just assumed everyone, or 90% of people, had a sufficiently wonderful childhood).
For me, this lack of self-regard is pervasive - it affects every area of my life. My biggest fear is that, because it's such an insidious and slippery problem, I will fail to spot it in time (the way I didn't see it in my most recent relationship). I'm 26 now but I could be 60, 70, or 80 with the same model of what the world feels like. I've spent a decade in and out of therapy exploring what's going on, naming things, raising my awareness of patterns I carry out. I journaled, drew, read books, took walks, talked to people, spent brief stints in meditation, tried running, got my brain zapped, took a dozen different medications. I've been running to solve this since I was 16. I know more now than I did then, but it never ceases to surprise me that the aftereffects of childhood last so long - even in this letter. It makes me sad that sometimes we have to try so hard to love ourselves, a gift that we could have received with no strings attached.
This is great advice. I have some friends who put up with really poor treatment - it was terrible to watch - and I wish I had had this to show them.
I'm curious about the other side of this. How does a person get so careless and cruel with other people? I cannot imagine ever telling someone that they're nothing, much less expecting them to still like me afterward.
The people that I know who have acted like this are predominately male and most of them don't seem to have any major trauma or mistreatment in their past. They may not be wonderful people in a general sense, but they do seem to treat their friends/family/coworkers better, so it's not like they're not capable of it. From my perspective, it seems like a horrible combination of entitlement, objectification, and misogyny. I would be interested if that perception is accurate or if there's something else going on.
I'm twice as old Ias LW and my soft, easygoing, vulnerable parts have become the parts I'm most proud of even though I didn't stick up for them enough when I was her age. She's ahead of the curve and I hope she'll go easy on herself.
“… the engulfing pain of self-abandonment, which you interpret as passion” - ah yes! I’ve been there so many times. How helpful to have it expressed this way.
I wonder though how does one distinguish this pretend passion from the real thing? And how does one stop avoiding men you think are too boring/don’t spark you enough (when they would be good for you!) without ending up in a wishy-washy relationship where you’d like more passion? How do you get healthy passion & not settle for someone you’re not in love with? I guess it starts from caring for yourself & your boundaries, but having (i hope) left behind the people who treat me badly, I’m not sure about how to get the good things. And I’m more than twice the LW’s age 😳
What struck me the most about this response is the challenge to be a bit more boring and dull in interactions with others. I relate to the writer’s impulse to reach out to friends about this guy and her misery. I still find myself doing these things decades past college with my pre-frontal cortex allegedly fully intact. Society often encourages us to reach out to loved ones for support (see: the majority of articles online written about experiencing emotional distress). I have found that reaching out is often an effective way to burn through people. Despite wanting to take your friends’ advice (and stop telling your friends about how much you want to leave this guy but can’t), letting go of the drama, being more boring, it feels a bit like death. I’m usually a rather calm, mild-mannered person, but there’s a part of me that relishes the struggle. The aching need to win by giving everything to a guy and becoming more nothing in the process, it’s a destructive force that makes me feel more alive. People have witnessed all of the drama that came with it and have left. Pushing down the feelings, distracting, isn’t the answer, though. That’s being boring with yourself when the task is to be a bit more boring with others. I guess art could be essential here. I could make some highly emotional art about the pain, art that is only for me. Strum on a guitar and howl. I wish for everyone a bit of space where they can make art, sometimes a bit loudly, just for themselves. Take a break from the status, the grades, and capture the feeling of this.
I guess the one thing I don't understand is...what do you do once you've felt your feelings vs intellectualizing them. Heather often talks about mining them and building from them and it confuses me to no end. Mine them for patterns? Mine them for assumptions? Old beliefs? I've been working hard the past few years to do more feeling and less thinking, but it hasn't led me anywhere. Am I looking at it wrong?
As always this resonates so much with me. Seeing the “prehistoric” reasons behind our actions is so liberating and allows us to have a truly meaningful relationship with ourselves and others.
Anyone else's inner 20 year old screaming at this entire response like holy water just got thrown on them?
“Who taught you that you were nothing?” The Man did. This is the perfect woman in a capitalist world. It makes her a perfect employee, too. When you say prehistoric you mean medieval times. It is important to patriarchy that women feel worthless without the love of a man, any man, even the worst man. And that means father, brother, uncle, priest, employer, etc. because when women value themselves it’s a threat to the status quo.
Fight for your life!
Reading this was profound. I could have written this letter in college - I mean the details of the guy were different, but the feelings involved and the messages I got from him were exactly the same. I wish I could go back and give this response to my 19, 20, 21-year-old self. I've never fully been able to articulate what happened to me at that time in my life - but this was exactly it, everything you laid out so clearly here, Heather. I feel like reading this healed something in me just now.
I can relate to LW, and this experience can fall under one term: codependent (labels aren't always useful but for me they name the problem). My relationships imploded precisely because I'd erased myself so much to give other people what I thought they wanted that I ceased to be a person at all, and it's hard to respect (or engage with) someone who has no regard for herself. I read Demi Moore's memoir "Inside Out" recently, and from perusing the internet it seems to be a more common experience than I'd thought (I just assumed everyone, or 90% of people, had a sufficiently wonderful childhood).
For me, this lack of self-regard is pervasive - it affects every area of my life. My biggest fear is that, because it's such an insidious and slippery problem, I will fail to spot it in time (the way I didn't see it in my most recent relationship). I'm 26 now but I could be 60, 70, or 80 with the same model of what the world feels like. I've spent a decade in and out of therapy exploring what's going on, naming things, raising my awareness of patterns I carry out. I journaled, drew, read books, took walks, talked to people, spent brief stints in meditation, tried running, got my brain zapped, took a dozen different medications. I've been running to solve this since I was 16. I know more now than I did then, but it never ceases to surprise me that the aftereffects of childhood last so long - even in this letter. It makes me sad that sometimes we have to try so hard to love ourselves, a gift that we could have received with no strings attached.
This is great advice. I have some friends who put up with really poor treatment - it was terrible to watch - and I wish I had had this to show them.
I'm curious about the other side of this. How does a person get so careless and cruel with other people? I cannot imagine ever telling someone that they're nothing, much less expecting them to still like me afterward.
The people that I know who have acted like this are predominately male and most of them don't seem to have any major trauma or mistreatment in their past. They may not be wonderful people in a general sense, but they do seem to treat their friends/family/coworkers better, so it's not like they're not capable of it. From my perspective, it seems like a horrible combination of entitlement, objectification, and misogyny. I would be interested if that perception is accurate or if there's something else going on.
"Self-abandonment is the only place where you’ll let yourself feel feelings." Reading this felt like the floor falling out from under me.
I'm twice as old Ias LW and my soft, easygoing, vulnerable parts have become the parts I'm most proud of even though I didn't stick up for them enough when I was her age. She's ahead of the curve and I hope she'll go easy on herself.
“… the engulfing pain of self-abandonment, which you interpret as passion” - ah yes! I’ve been there so many times. How helpful to have it expressed this way.
I wonder though how does one distinguish this pretend passion from the real thing? And how does one stop avoiding men you think are too boring/don’t spark you enough (when they would be good for you!) without ending up in a wishy-washy relationship where you’d like more passion? How do you get healthy passion & not settle for someone you’re not in love with? I guess it starts from caring for yourself & your boundaries, but having (i hope) left behind the people who treat me badly, I’m not sure about how to get the good things. And I’m more than twice the LW’s age 😳
What struck me the most about this response is the challenge to be a bit more boring and dull in interactions with others. I relate to the writer’s impulse to reach out to friends about this guy and her misery. I still find myself doing these things decades past college with my pre-frontal cortex allegedly fully intact. Society often encourages us to reach out to loved ones for support (see: the majority of articles online written about experiencing emotional distress). I have found that reaching out is often an effective way to burn through people. Despite wanting to take your friends’ advice (and stop telling your friends about how much you want to leave this guy but can’t), letting go of the drama, being more boring, it feels a bit like death. I’m usually a rather calm, mild-mannered person, but there’s a part of me that relishes the struggle. The aching need to win by giving everything to a guy and becoming more nothing in the process, it’s a destructive force that makes me feel more alive. People have witnessed all of the drama that came with it and have left. Pushing down the feelings, distracting, isn’t the answer, though. That’s being boring with yourself when the task is to be a bit more boring with others. I guess art could be essential here. I could make some highly emotional art about the pain, art that is only for me. Strum on a guitar and howl. I wish for everyone a bit of space where they can make art, sometimes a bit loudly, just for themselves. Take a break from the status, the grades, and capture the feeling of this.
I guess the one thing I don't understand is...what do you do once you've felt your feelings vs intellectualizing them. Heather often talks about mining them and building from them and it confuses me to no end. Mine them for patterns? Mine them for assumptions? Old beliefs? I've been working hard the past few years to do more feeling and less thinking, but it hasn't led me anywhere. Am I looking at it wrong?
As always this resonates so much with me. Seeing the “prehistoric” reasons behind our actions is so liberating and allows us to have a truly meaningful relationship with ourselves and others.
Thank you 😊
This is one of the best things I've ever read in my life. I really needed this. Thank you Heather :)