If someone is badmouthing their partner while still spooning them at night, they are auditioning you for the role of Emotional Upgrade. Do not take the part.
This is not a romantic comedy. It is casting call for a long con.
Real love cleans up. It argues about bills. It fixes the sink. It shows up for the dentist. If you want fireworks, buy a ticket to the circus. If you want a life, sign up for the person who actually shows up on Tuesdays and carries the groceries.
I would love to know how the writer is doing now; I hope she’s re-married to someone less weasely, or having a fucking fantastic time on her own. Either way, I hope that she’s no longer allocating any emotional space to this guy. What a prick.
Being ghosted never feels good... it leaves this raw sense of incompletion, of “What did I do wrong?” That hunger for an answer can almost become its own loop, pulling you back toward the very person who hurt you.
Polly, I really resonated with what you said about how this woman’s fate was sealed once she started talking to someone who was already unhappy in their relationship. I’ve been on the other side of that dynamic before, and I agree there’s a truth there. But I wonder if there’s a way to frame this beyond good/bad or right/wrong, beyond “mistake.”
Labeling someone as simply “a person to avoid” can become its own kind of fantasy. It keeps us focused on identifying them... the bad one, the escapist... rather than turning inward to ask: Why am I drawn to this in the first place?
That’s the deeper question. Because it’s possible she was engaging in a kind of escapism, too. Even the act of repeatedly reaching out to him, asking what she did wrong, can be seen as a way of escaping her own silence... her own presence with the hurt. It’s a way of outsourcing the work of being with herself.
This is why I think advice like “don’t date people like this” often falls flat. When we’re deep in a fantasy, we can’t control it through rules or warnings. That’s why smart, “self-aware” people still end up repeating the same patterns. Intellectual understanding isn’t the same as embodied understanding. Until you can really feel and name the part of yourself that is seeking something through that fantasy, you’ll keep mistaking the projection for reality.
In that sense, advice that focuses only on avoiding certain “types” of people can actually strengthen the pattern. We’re often most susceptible to the very qualities we’ve exiled in ourselves. What we can’t bear to acknowledge internally, we project outward... and when it appears in another person, it feels magnetic.
The real work isn’t about avoiding these people altogether. It’s about seeing clearly what part of us is doing the seeking, the escaping, the projecting. Once that’s visible, the pattern begins to lose its hold.
Yes, but I think that was the point of Polly's answer. I think it's difficult to see the part that you play in things until you're able to identify that the other person isn't some poor soul who has a mean (or boring & possessive partner); you have to see, first of all, that this person you've idealized is actually not so great after all. And once you've done that, then you can go into the work of examining why you wanted them, and perhaps the ways in which you sold yourself out to get them. Laying that out is what Polly/Heather does here.
I agree. I think the first step needs to be seeing the red flags, identifying the overall dance going on, maybe just a little time on why they do what they're doing, and then the focus on one's own role in it all. It's an entire puzzle to be assembled and disassembled.
I'll add that a modality like Somatic Experiencing helps tremendously with all of this. I've taken Irene Lyon's Smart Body Smart Mind course on the nervous system and my experience has been that once I do the work of building capacity in my nervous system, old trauma can release more easily and then it's much easier to avoid those old patterns, like escaping into a relationship. It's like tweaking the operating system to the extent that many unhealthy patterns slip away. Pretty fascinating to experience.
Only focusing on the mental aspect makes it much harder to break the habits.
Yep, exactly. We are often mysteries to ourselves. And until we understand ourselves better Polly is providing a lighthouse in the dark. Hey, that guy who tells you he's so over his partner but... hang on, he's still with her?! Stay well away! Sure, he attracts you; sure, you're not sure why. But in the meantime, heed Polly's warning and stay off that rock.
What I love about Polly is that she never loses compassion. 'It’s like you were attacked by a shark, and now you’re blaming yourself for being made of meat.' She knows that after the shock of realising your belief in a relationship with an unsatisfiable serial attention-seeker was false can come a second false belief: that you're therefore weak, a failure, an idiot. You're not; you're a lovable human being who exists in this distorted culture, like the rest of us. You just got a bit wiser, that's all.
Makes sense... I'm understanding you describing an out-in direction. For me it has been more of an in-out, seeing what the inner me is reaching for helps to clarify- I think I was sensitive to the language around doing things wrong or messing up- these judgments tend to keep me more deceived because they are external judgments that can trigger shame etc. Which is why I lean towards what am I internally reaching for separate of any external signifiers. I'm probably oversimplifying here... reality is messier... But I get your point I just differ slightly and I can also see how I could've missed the point in the article.
Yes! In-out vs out-in is a nice way to articulate it. I think that's a pretty key difference between people that can result misunderstandings sometimes, we are all so used to our own processes.
I know there have been times when a friend has described their experience of a mental/emotional process and I've been like !!!!! it's inside-out!
Maybe sometimes it goes by what a person finds to be most effective/healthy and other times it's simply how we're wired.
I can relate to this. I always thought I needed to avoid emotionally unavailable types, when really, I needed to get more in touch with my emotions and how people make me feel when I'm around them. I also think going after emotionally unavailable types was my own was of escapism, because I knew there would never be real intimacy there and I wouldn't have to truly open up - but it would give me a cheap hit of energy, like an energy drink might.
WOOF. I relate to this so hard, point for point. I got involved with a man who was shiny and lovebomby, and I could even see through that veneer early on. Of course there were even more obvious red flags in things he said. For example: "I'm not avoidant anymore, but I used to be. I used to dump women out of the blue in a blindsiding way when things got too real." "Yeah, I broke-up with my last ex the morning we were supposed to go on a 7 day backpacking trip. She was so excited about it, but I realized that day I wasn't very excited to spend that time with her. So I dumped her." "Yeah I'm kind of a people pleaser, and really friendly at work, but I find I'm really mean in online political forums for some reason. I take out my rage on people there."
There are always signposts along our journey to hell lol. Just like the story above, while he was saying all these concerning comments, he was also bringing me gifts, talking to his family about me, planning trips with me, and being ultra romantic. It's very disorienting when this contradictory behavior is happening. My mistake--much like your mistake--was not listening and then reacting to my gut when it was telling me to run.
I ended up going on a romantic weekend away at a spa with this man where we had the best sex of our entire relationship. He broke up with me three days later, stating that he just "didn't like me that much" and couldn't "see a future" with me. The whiplash of that wrecked me. That relationship was only three months long, and the memory of his words still sting almost a year later. But I remind myself that--as above--people like this aren't looking for real partners. They either don't know what real intimacy is, or consciously/unconsiously don't want it. I/you are deserving of love and acceptance and I/you CAN find someone who will embrace--or at least learn to live with--all my/your annoying habits. Even if that's in friendship. Our work is to look closely at who we accept into our lives and why, and what we can do better next time. Best of luck!
I know EXACTLY how it feels to be blindsided, to be getting affirmations (he wrote a love song about me, etc.) one day and then suddenly to be left. A few differences: He wasn’t involved with anybody when we met, we were married 15 years, we had two children. Believe when when I say it is entirely possible not to be able to detect big red flags even in hindsight.
But now I’ve been married to a really good guy for 19 years. And my grown kids and grandkids love him.
Apologies that this isn't about the letter and your advice, but Liz Gilbert did indeed do an extremely honest & impressive bit of the 'I don't fucking know anything anymore!' that you're looking for in the Oldster yesterday - https://substack.com/home/post/p-173182677
Fully agree with Polly’s words, then and now. Whatever they did to their last partner (badmouth them to strangers, cheat on, and so on), they will do to you. And to the next partner. Don’t believe you’re the exception—you are until you aren’t.
(Of course there’s a caveat that some people do work on themselves and evolve past these patterns. But you’d need to see real contrition and changed behaviours, not just taking them at their word.)
I used to share Ask Polly columns on socials and with friends all the time, and have genuinely respected it for many years, even if I disagreed with a post here and there. So it's always a little disappointing when an entry comes across as ill- (or briefly-) considered because it lacks engagement with the discomfiting aspects of Being A Person In The World.
I've never left a critical comment on a substack before, and this isn't going to start a habit for me, but I wanted to share that this was kind of strikingly shallow - striking because I really, really don't expect that shallowness from Ask Polly.
The didactic title of the post and the criticism of Elizabeth Gilbert from the jump were interesting choices; I've never in my life come away from a Gilbert read with the impression that she ISN'T saying, "Honestly, I don't fucking know anymore - but I want to pull something meaningful out of this experience," so the takeaway given here feels a bit more personal than analytical - which is fine, I'm always happy to disagree with a read and move tf on with my day, but I mention these elements because, taken in context of the full post, I think they reflect a discomfort with the type of Relationship Messiness that this column often embraces head-on.
What, I wonder, is the arbitrary division between "friend" and "sexy potential partner" being drawn here? I can't tell if this is just Straight People assumptions about friendliness between men and women - in which case, SEE YA, adios, godspeed, your lives continue to sound absolutely miserable - or if the Sexy Other Person label being proposed is something that can only be applied in hindsight, after that person becomes a partner. The distinction matters: COMPLAINING TO OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIPS IS HEALTHY AND COOL 😎 👍. If I treated every friend like a potential romantic partner while I was in a monogamous relationship, then yeah, sure, any conversation becomes a bit sketchy - but man, if we're being totally honest with ourselves, couldn't you fall in love with any of your friends? Joking, bitching, sharing, teasing - isn't that how you fall in love with someone in the first place? My friends are beautiful, searingly intelligent, relentlessly funny women; the things we tell each other are often flirty or deeply personal because they're witty and shameless, not because we plan to jump each other's bones later - but that latter condition could change, one day! If my girl needs to sit and cry with me one day because her husband always assumes that she will take up the bulk of childcare, even though they agreed to share responsibility equally when she found out she was unexpectedly pregnant, that MIGHT lead to them breaking up! But it also matters that she can HAVE that conversation with another person at a time when her feelings are too raw or too scary to share with her current partner! The conversation does not automatically become a red flag afterwards if she decides to date me!
What is the line between telling your friends that you're hurting, you're upset, you're unfulfilled, and "badmouthing red flag oh my god everybody we have to start finger-wagging because women can't complain about their HUSBANDS who they've MARRIED which means they should NEVER CRITICIZE OR LEAVE THEM" ? Hello. What century is this.
Jokes aside, I get it. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. Cheating is wildly painful, often for everyone involved, maybe to different degrees; it sucks to be cheated on. I have dated, and broken up with, a serial cheater after I realized that she had fallen in love with someone else. The love wasn't inherently incompatible for our relationship, but HOW she treated both the Other Woman, even before she knew what she was doing, made me lose a significant chunk of respect for her, and our relationship couldn't survive the rocky patch after that loss. But realizing that things are rocky, and talking to other people about it, and LISTENING to how a friend responds, FEELING LOVED by that other person, and even discovering that your friend's opinions on the matter reflect important shared values that you didn't fully appreciate before - that is not an inherently shitty place from which you can take stock of your relationships and conclude that, Well, Damn, I'd MUCH rather be in a relationship with someone who values X, Y, Z more than my current partner, or would approach these problems differently, etc.
Relationships are more organic than that. Loyalty isn't a band-aid you slap onto marital problems to make them go away. It should be a gift, not a hindrance: I love you enough to accept the wrinkles and the cracks, and to work with you as far as you're willing to work with me, but I also love you enough to respect that our lives WILL, INEVITABLY, change - and we may not be the best partners for each other when they do.
YES, there is an element of escapism to falling for people who aren't your current partner - but isn't imagination a space for discovery? For finding out what you want and what matters to you? And, most importantly, for making a path towards a life that is richer, more honest, more fulfilling?
Idk, man. It all depends, no? Am I overreacting? Maybe part of my reaction is out of concern that parts of the world, including the U.S., are increasingly pro-natalist and phobic of any kind of love, sex, or marriage that isn't Man + Woman + Forever. YES, we should take our partnerships seriously, because the world is a wildly, unrelentingly - sometimes, it would seem, increasingly - cruel place, and we have to take care of each other, maybe more than ever before. But part of that care is being fucking honest with ourselves and EACH OTHER when something isn't working. And, my god, if the thought of your husband playing golf irl and then playing a golf game on his phone makes you want to claw your eyes out, maybe "boring" is the word you use to describe the problem now, but something else is happening. Or maybe you're Heather, and it really is JUST boring, which connotes the security of a long-haul relationship, and doesn't run counter to the feeling of, "That Guy, My Boring Golf-idiot, My Husband, I Love Him Real Real Bad." Of all the adjectives I might use to describe someone I love doing something I find insane, "boring" is pretty safe! It might be a starting point to thinking more or the relationship - not necessarily a well-examined, definitive and beloved feature of it.
I have to get on with my life, now, but as much as I appreciate many things in this post and the original response (and I know, it's very evil of me not to include the Good Stuff in my critical sandwich or whatever), I'm still a little disappointed. But love you anyway.
I'm nearing the end of Gilbert's book now and my ideas about it have evolved dramatically along the way. Unlike a lot of people who've reviewed this book, I find her voice very easy to trust and love. I think I'm a little suspicious of most gurus but I don't have that problem with her at all. I think my comments in this column are mostly a side effect of being disappointed with the very start of her book, which is extremely off-putting. If you read it, I think you'll understand what I mean by that. My feelings about the book as a whole are complicated and have a lot to do with my evolving understanding of what I want to achieve with my own writing and my own nonfiction books. I am exceptionally critical of certain choices I find self-indulgent and lazy because these are things I fall into and lament myself. But I don't remotely think she's a bad person, and I appreciate how daring her honesty is in this case. I'd be interested in hearing more about what you think after you read her book!
As far as your finding this column out of line with my other work, well... it is over a decade old! I think my tone was much less compassionate in the old days. There was honestly some freedom in that, and some humor, and I still appreciate the raw force of a lot of my early stuff, which was in some cases more propulsive and engaging because I was more reckless!
And no, I don't think the red flags I describe apply neatly to friendship. I specified that when someone is flirting with you and they say "my wife is a bitch" or the like, you have to take that as a seriously bad sign. I can't really do justice to what a bad idea it is to get involved with a person who's willing to throw their spouse or girlfriend or partner or lover under the bus just to make themselves look neglected or unfairly treated or in need of romantic care.
That said, I became friends with a guy once and out of the blue he started bagging on his ex relentlessly, painting her as an absolute nightmare, calling her a soulless loser, all without mentioning his own emotional struggles, his own responsibilities, his own flaws and mistakes. It was incredibly jarring and I quickly decided that I couldn't trust a person like that enough to be close to him.
So no, I don't think that my column suggests that shit talking is a red flag across the board. But sometimes it's a MAJOR red flag. It really depends on the context, the relationship you have with the person, and how willing they are to examine their own flaws and missteps.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on this! I am just a human with my own strong opinions and weaknesses, and I appreciate your engagement here. Go read Gilbert's book and let's talk about it more!
I see what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between a friendship, in which you may bitch about your partner sometimes, and having a sexual interest in another person/using them as a stepping stone, and bitching about your partner in that context. How do you tell the difference? I'm not so sure, but there is one.
Yes. While I can DEFINITELY salute some of the concerns here, I think when it comes to the complaint/friendship scenario there are some distinct markers for the red flag. One of the distinctions is are you already friends, like really friends, or is the relationship starting out with attraction/chemistry and either
a) relying on a conversation about the relationship problems as a building block of getting to know each other
Or
b) using a complaint sound bite as a way to brush aside the fact that there is a partner in the picture while moving full steam into *chin on hands* I wanna know all about youuu let's trade mixes and share confidences mode.
(mix tape is both literal and a placeholder. This is where the Straight People aspect can maybe be relevant, not to be overly reductive but I sigh deeply within my soul as I acknowledge that a straight guy making you mixes miiight mean he wants to fuck you. I know guys who are the exception to this rule but still....)
There is also a difference between having a heartfelt conversation about relationship stuff that is troubling you vs just throwing out negative names and adjectives about your partner and leaving it at that. Sharing one or two anecdotes about the reason you're calling your partner xyz to support your behavior but not balancing it with anything good, never sharing a funny anecdote or mentioning how you support each other in daily life.
Getting to know people is fun. Getting to know people is sexy. Friendships can feel like romance (and are, in the classical sense). If we try to draw ONE shape that shows the line between friendship and sEXiNeSs we will always fail. It's not about making a template, it's down to the people involved to be honest with themselves about what's going on.
Having people to parse out relationship shit with is essential, I get no whiff of Heather ever saying otherwise. That's just not the conversation here. The conversation is about people (often men) who discuss their current partners flippantly and without affection.
I totally agree. If someone is a good partner, they will be sharing good anecdotes mixed with the challenges. You will get a sense of their parter as an actual person, not a vague, mysoginistic cliché. Unfortunately we live in a world where media has trained everyone (men and women) to see women as vague, mysoginistic clichés: the manic pixie dream girl, the old ball and chain, the femme fatale, the sleeping beauty waiting to be kissed, etc.
If you want a good male partner, find a man who actually likes individual, real women. And be friends with women who actually like other women! Because if you are a woman, liking and being liked by other women will teach you how to like yourself. And then you will be able to recognize what it feels like for a man to like you as a person, instead of just a vague idea.
I appreciate that you responded in good faith! Agree to disagree, respectfully of course, on the basis of the assumption that any conversation - let alone an entire relationship - can be fully & faithfully represented in a letter like this one. Which is fine — the letter-writer doesn't owe anyone that!! — but the tacit understanding that these letters are pieces of a life, and not full representations of them, is precisely why one's reading & responses to them deserve a little room for complexity.
I do think that, rather than being distinct conversations, there is a continuum between Heather's points & mine — I wouldn't have posted those points otherwise — but I'll grant you that I could have spent more time developing my reply if I'd wanted to :')
I just wrote a substack about this- and have been oscillating through fantasy and reality after finding the incandescent, but wholly flimsy, substance of fantasy in my life…. Oooph. As always, this was exactly what I needed. Thank you 🤍
I appreciate the comments on Elizabeth Gilbert's new book. I haven't read it and don't plan to. Something about all of it has just rubbed me the wrong way. Even all the 12 Step stuff she speaks of a lot....my understanding has been that part of the point of it all is to not make it a big ego thing, but to stay humble. So writing in detail about all of it? Just chafes for me.....Plus, I'm pretty private anyway, so the thought of writing such a book is mind-boggling.
I’m reading it now and wish it was better. It feels less like story telling and more like a self conscious sermon on addiction. Which is disappointing. I usually find her to be a strong writer.
These conversations have been helpful. I've been through quite an ordeal myself involving the healthcare system and a chronic heart condition. Pushing back against hundreds of thousands of dollars in crazy wrong bills. It's quite a story. I've had my moments of thinking I'll write about it.
But then I don't want to relive it all. I don't know if others would be interested. I'm pretty private and mainly have wanted to heal and move on. Making a huge big deal of it all seems so bizarre, actually, even with the pretty amazing moments of miracles cropping up just when I needed them.
So the Elizabeth Gilbert book and also Suleika Jaouad's writing about her cancer story....there's just something I'm not ashamed to say feels off-putting to me about it all. Is it jealousy? I don't think so. But the sort of guru vibe of it all....hmm.....and the privilege! The support of loving family and friends throughout. It's sort of mystifying to me and so I appreciate's Heather's comments. I haven't been able to put my finger on the exact nature of my discomfort with it all.
If someone is badmouthing their partner while still spooning them at night, they are auditioning you for the role of Emotional Upgrade. Do not take the part.
This is not a romantic comedy. It is casting call for a long con.
Real love cleans up. It argues about bills. It fixes the sink. It shows up for the dentist. If you want fireworks, buy a ticket to the circus. If you want a life, sign up for the person who actually shows up on Tuesdays and carries the groceries.
I would love to know how the writer is doing now; I hope she’s re-married to someone less weasely, or having a fucking fantastic time on her own. Either way, I hope that she’s no longer allocating any emotional space to this guy. What a prick.
Being ghosted never feels good... it leaves this raw sense of incompletion, of “What did I do wrong?” That hunger for an answer can almost become its own loop, pulling you back toward the very person who hurt you.
Polly, I really resonated with what you said about how this woman’s fate was sealed once she started talking to someone who was already unhappy in their relationship. I’ve been on the other side of that dynamic before, and I agree there’s a truth there. But I wonder if there’s a way to frame this beyond good/bad or right/wrong, beyond “mistake.”
Labeling someone as simply “a person to avoid” can become its own kind of fantasy. It keeps us focused on identifying them... the bad one, the escapist... rather than turning inward to ask: Why am I drawn to this in the first place?
That’s the deeper question. Because it’s possible she was engaging in a kind of escapism, too. Even the act of repeatedly reaching out to him, asking what she did wrong, can be seen as a way of escaping her own silence... her own presence with the hurt. It’s a way of outsourcing the work of being with herself.
This is why I think advice like “don’t date people like this” often falls flat. When we’re deep in a fantasy, we can’t control it through rules or warnings. That’s why smart, “self-aware” people still end up repeating the same patterns. Intellectual understanding isn’t the same as embodied understanding. Until you can really feel and name the part of yourself that is seeking something through that fantasy, you’ll keep mistaking the projection for reality.
In that sense, advice that focuses only on avoiding certain “types” of people can actually strengthen the pattern. We’re often most susceptible to the very qualities we’ve exiled in ourselves. What we can’t bear to acknowledge internally, we project outward... and when it appears in another person, it feels magnetic.
The real work isn’t about avoiding these people altogether. It’s about seeing clearly what part of us is doing the seeking, the escaping, the projecting. Once that’s visible, the pattern begins to lose its hold.
Yes, but I think that was the point of Polly's answer. I think it's difficult to see the part that you play in things until you're able to identify that the other person isn't some poor soul who has a mean (or boring & possessive partner); you have to see, first of all, that this person you've idealized is actually not so great after all. And once you've done that, then you can go into the work of examining why you wanted them, and perhaps the ways in which you sold yourself out to get them. Laying that out is what Polly/Heather does here.
I agree. I think the first step needs to be seeing the red flags, identifying the overall dance going on, maybe just a little time on why they do what they're doing, and then the focus on one's own role in it all. It's an entire puzzle to be assembled and disassembled.
I'll add that a modality like Somatic Experiencing helps tremendously with all of this. I've taken Irene Lyon's Smart Body Smart Mind course on the nervous system and my experience has been that once I do the work of building capacity in my nervous system, old trauma can release more easily and then it's much easier to avoid those old patterns, like escaping into a relationship. It's like tweaking the operating system to the extent that many unhealthy patterns slip away. Pretty fascinating to experience.
Only focusing on the mental aspect makes it much harder to break the habits.
Yes! Love this.
Yep, exactly. We are often mysteries to ourselves. And until we understand ourselves better Polly is providing a lighthouse in the dark. Hey, that guy who tells you he's so over his partner but... hang on, he's still with her?! Stay well away! Sure, he attracts you; sure, you're not sure why. But in the meantime, heed Polly's warning and stay off that rock.
What I love about Polly is that she never loses compassion. 'It’s like you were attacked by a shark, and now you’re blaming yourself for being made of meat.' She knows that after the shock of realising your belief in a relationship with an unsatisfiable serial attention-seeker was false can come a second false belief: that you're therefore weak, a failure, an idiot. You're not; you're a lovable human being who exists in this distorted culture, like the rest of us. You just got a bit wiser, that's all.
Makes sense... I'm understanding you describing an out-in direction. For me it has been more of an in-out, seeing what the inner me is reaching for helps to clarify- I think I was sensitive to the language around doing things wrong or messing up- these judgments tend to keep me more deceived because they are external judgments that can trigger shame etc. Which is why I lean towards what am I internally reaching for separate of any external signifiers. I'm probably oversimplifying here... reality is messier... But I get your point I just differ slightly and I can also see how I could've missed the point in the article.
Ah, that's interesting - different people could have different processes, and in-out is another way of going about it.
Yes! In-out vs out-in is a nice way to articulate it. I think that's a pretty key difference between people that can result misunderstandings sometimes, we are all so used to our own processes.
I know there have been times when a friend has described their experience of a mental/emotional process and I've been like !!!!! it's inside-out!
Maybe sometimes it goes by what a person finds to be most effective/healthy and other times it's simply how we're wired.
I can relate to this. I always thought I needed to avoid emotionally unavailable types, when really, I needed to get more in touch with my emotions and how people make me feel when I'm around them. I also think going after emotionally unavailable types was my own was of escapism, because I knew there would never be real intimacy there and I wouldn't have to truly open up - but it would give me a cheap hit of energy, like an energy drink might.
Your comment is very eye-opening. Thank you!
WOOF. I relate to this so hard, point for point. I got involved with a man who was shiny and lovebomby, and I could even see through that veneer early on. Of course there were even more obvious red flags in things he said. For example: "I'm not avoidant anymore, but I used to be. I used to dump women out of the blue in a blindsiding way when things got too real." "Yeah, I broke-up with my last ex the morning we were supposed to go on a 7 day backpacking trip. She was so excited about it, but I realized that day I wasn't very excited to spend that time with her. So I dumped her." "Yeah I'm kind of a people pleaser, and really friendly at work, but I find I'm really mean in online political forums for some reason. I take out my rage on people there."
There are always signposts along our journey to hell lol. Just like the story above, while he was saying all these concerning comments, he was also bringing me gifts, talking to his family about me, planning trips with me, and being ultra romantic. It's very disorienting when this contradictory behavior is happening. My mistake--much like your mistake--was not listening and then reacting to my gut when it was telling me to run.
I ended up going on a romantic weekend away at a spa with this man where we had the best sex of our entire relationship. He broke up with me three days later, stating that he just "didn't like me that much" and couldn't "see a future" with me. The whiplash of that wrecked me. That relationship was only three months long, and the memory of his words still sting almost a year later. But I remind myself that--as above--people like this aren't looking for real partners. They either don't know what real intimacy is, or consciously/unconsiously don't want it. I/you are deserving of love and acceptance and I/you CAN find someone who will embrace--or at least learn to live with--all my/your annoying habits. Even if that's in friendship. Our work is to look closely at who we accept into our lives and why, and what we can do better next time. Best of luck!
God. I went through something almost exactly similar. Thank you for sharing yours!
Damn, Polly - you nailed it. My last husband and I met online while he was still married to his first wife. He wanted out and spun a tale I believed.
Fast forward 11 years later and I'm newly disabled and he moves on to a mutual friend because I'm 'old, broken and not making the big bucks anymore'.
Patterns repeat if you don't open your eyes and see them. Took me a few years to get that clarity on what I'd participated in and what I let happen.
I'm happily single and living a good life - and I hear things are shifting for him once more. How exhausting is that kind of life?
I know EXACTLY how it feels to be blindsided, to be getting affirmations (he wrote a love song about me, etc.) one day and then suddenly to be left. A few differences: He wasn’t involved with anybody when we met, we were married 15 years, we had two children. Believe when when I say it is entirely possible not to be able to detect big red flags even in hindsight.
But now I’ve been married to a really good guy for 19 years. And my grown kids and grandkids love him.
My ex … his life doesn’t sound so good.
Apologies that this isn't about the letter and your advice, but Liz Gilbert did indeed do an extremely honest & impressive bit of the 'I don't fucking know anything anymore!' that you're looking for in the Oldster yesterday - https://substack.com/home/post/p-173182677
Incredible interview!! Thank you for sharing this.
Fully agree with Polly’s words, then and now. Whatever they did to their last partner (badmouth them to strangers, cheat on, and so on), they will do to you. And to the next partner. Don’t believe you’re the exception—you are until you aren’t.
(Of course there’s a caveat that some people do work on themselves and evolve past these patterns. But you’d need to see real contrition and changed behaviours, not just taking them at their word.)
I used to share Ask Polly columns on socials and with friends all the time, and have genuinely respected it for many years, even if I disagreed with a post here and there. So it's always a little disappointing when an entry comes across as ill- (or briefly-) considered because it lacks engagement with the discomfiting aspects of Being A Person In The World.
I've never left a critical comment on a substack before, and this isn't going to start a habit for me, but I wanted to share that this was kind of strikingly shallow - striking because I really, really don't expect that shallowness from Ask Polly.
The didactic title of the post and the criticism of Elizabeth Gilbert from the jump were interesting choices; I've never in my life come away from a Gilbert read with the impression that she ISN'T saying, "Honestly, I don't fucking know anymore - but I want to pull something meaningful out of this experience," so the takeaway given here feels a bit more personal than analytical - which is fine, I'm always happy to disagree with a read and move tf on with my day, but I mention these elements because, taken in context of the full post, I think they reflect a discomfort with the type of Relationship Messiness that this column often embraces head-on.
What, I wonder, is the arbitrary division between "friend" and "sexy potential partner" being drawn here? I can't tell if this is just Straight People assumptions about friendliness between men and women - in which case, SEE YA, adios, godspeed, your lives continue to sound absolutely miserable - or if the Sexy Other Person label being proposed is something that can only be applied in hindsight, after that person becomes a partner. The distinction matters: COMPLAINING TO OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIPS IS HEALTHY AND COOL 😎 👍. If I treated every friend like a potential romantic partner while I was in a monogamous relationship, then yeah, sure, any conversation becomes a bit sketchy - but man, if we're being totally honest with ourselves, couldn't you fall in love with any of your friends? Joking, bitching, sharing, teasing - isn't that how you fall in love with someone in the first place? My friends are beautiful, searingly intelligent, relentlessly funny women; the things we tell each other are often flirty or deeply personal because they're witty and shameless, not because we plan to jump each other's bones later - but that latter condition could change, one day! If my girl needs to sit and cry with me one day because her husband always assumes that she will take up the bulk of childcare, even though they agreed to share responsibility equally when she found out she was unexpectedly pregnant, that MIGHT lead to them breaking up! But it also matters that she can HAVE that conversation with another person at a time when her feelings are too raw or too scary to share with her current partner! The conversation does not automatically become a red flag afterwards if she decides to date me!
What is the line between telling your friends that you're hurting, you're upset, you're unfulfilled, and "badmouthing red flag oh my god everybody we have to start finger-wagging because women can't complain about their HUSBANDS who they've MARRIED which means they should NEVER CRITICIZE OR LEAVE THEM" ? Hello. What century is this.
Jokes aside, I get it. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. Cheating is wildly painful, often for everyone involved, maybe to different degrees; it sucks to be cheated on. I have dated, and broken up with, a serial cheater after I realized that she had fallen in love with someone else. The love wasn't inherently incompatible for our relationship, but HOW she treated both the Other Woman, even before she knew what she was doing, made me lose a significant chunk of respect for her, and our relationship couldn't survive the rocky patch after that loss. But realizing that things are rocky, and talking to other people about it, and LISTENING to how a friend responds, FEELING LOVED by that other person, and even discovering that your friend's opinions on the matter reflect important shared values that you didn't fully appreciate before - that is not an inherently shitty place from which you can take stock of your relationships and conclude that, Well, Damn, I'd MUCH rather be in a relationship with someone who values X, Y, Z more than my current partner, or would approach these problems differently, etc.
Relationships are more organic than that. Loyalty isn't a band-aid you slap onto marital problems to make them go away. It should be a gift, not a hindrance: I love you enough to accept the wrinkles and the cracks, and to work with you as far as you're willing to work with me, but I also love you enough to respect that our lives WILL, INEVITABLY, change - and we may not be the best partners for each other when they do.
YES, there is an element of escapism to falling for people who aren't your current partner - but isn't imagination a space for discovery? For finding out what you want and what matters to you? And, most importantly, for making a path towards a life that is richer, more honest, more fulfilling?
Idk, man. It all depends, no? Am I overreacting? Maybe part of my reaction is out of concern that parts of the world, including the U.S., are increasingly pro-natalist and phobic of any kind of love, sex, or marriage that isn't Man + Woman + Forever. YES, we should take our partnerships seriously, because the world is a wildly, unrelentingly - sometimes, it would seem, increasingly - cruel place, and we have to take care of each other, maybe more than ever before. But part of that care is being fucking honest with ourselves and EACH OTHER when something isn't working. And, my god, if the thought of your husband playing golf irl and then playing a golf game on his phone makes you want to claw your eyes out, maybe "boring" is the word you use to describe the problem now, but something else is happening. Or maybe you're Heather, and it really is JUST boring, which connotes the security of a long-haul relationship, and doesn't run counter to the feeling of, "That Guy, My Boring Golf-idiot, My Husband, I Love Him Real Real Bad." Of all the adjectives I might use to describe someone I love doing something I find insane, "boring" is pretty safe! It might be a starting point to thinking more or the relationship - not necessarily a well-examined, definitive and beloved feature of it.
I have to get on with my life, now, but as much as I appreciate many things in this post and the original response (and I know, it's very evil of me not to include the Good Stuff in my critical sandwich or whatever), I'm still a little disappointed. But love you anyway.
I'm nearing the end of Gilbert's book now and my ideas about it have evolved dramatically along the way. Unlike a lot of people who've reviewed this book, I find her voice very easy to trust and love. I think I'm a little suspicious of most gurus but I don't have that problem with her at all. I think my comments in this column are mostly a side effect of being disappointed with the very start of her book, which is extremely off-putting. If you read it, I think you'll understand what I mean by that. My feelings about the book as a whole are complicated and have a lot to do with my evolving understanding of what I want to achieve with my own writing and my own nonfiction books. I am exceptionally critical of certain choices I find self-indulgent and lazy because these are things I fall into and lament myself. But I don't remotely think she's a bad person, and I appreciate how daring her honesty is in this case. I'd be interested in hearing more about what you think after you read her book!
As far as your finding this column out of line with my other work, well... it is over a decade old! I think my tone was much less compassionate in the old days. There was honestly some freedom in that, and some humor, and I still appreciate the raw force of a lot of my early stuff, which was in some cases more propulsive and engaging because I was more reckless!
And no, I don't think the red flags I describe apply neatly to friendship. I specified that when someone is flirting with you and they say "my wife is a bitch" or the like, you have to take that as a seriously bad sign. I can't really do justice to what a bad idea it is to get involved with a person who's willing to throw their spouse or girlfriend or partner or lover under the bus just to make themselves look neglected or unfairly treated or in need of romantic care.
That said, I became friends with a guy once and out of the blue he started bagging on his ex relentlessly, painting her as an absolute nightmare, calling her a soulless loser, all without mentioning his own emotional struggles, his own responsibilities, his own flaws and mistakes. It was incredibly jarring and I quickly decided that I couldn't trust a person like that enough to be close to him.
So no, I don't think that my column suggests that shit talking is a red flag across the board. But sometimes it's a MAJOR red flag. It really depends on the context, the relationship you have with the person, and how willing they are to examine their own flaws and missteps.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on this! I am just a human with my own strong opinions and weaknesses, and I appreciate your engagement here. Go read Gilbert's book and let's talk about it more!
I see what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between a friendship, in which you may bitch about your partner sometimes, and having a sexual interest in another person/using them as a stepping stone, and bitching about your partner in that context. How do you tell the difference? I'm not so sure, but there is one.
Yes. While I can DEFINITELY salute some of the concerns here, I think when it comes to the complaint/friendship scenario there are some distinct markers for the red flag. One of the distinctions is are you already friends, like really friends, or is the relationship starting out with attraction/chemistry and either
a) relying on a conversation about the relationship problems as a building block of getting to know each other
Or
b) using a complaint sound bite as a way to brush aside the fact that there is a partner in the picture while moving full steam into *chin on hands* I wanna know all about youuu let's trade mixes and share confidences mode.
(mix tape is both literal and a placeholder. This is where the Straight People aspect can maybe be relevant, not to be overly reductive but I sigh deeply within my soul as I acknowledge that a straight guy making you mixes miiight mean he wants to fuck you. I know guys who are the exception to this rule but still....)
There is also a difference between having a heartfelt conversation about relationship stuff that is troubling you vs just throwing out negative names and adjectives about your partner and leaving it at that. Sharing one or two anecdotes about the reason you're calling your partner xyz to support your behavior but not balancing it with anything good, never sharing a funny anecdote or mentioning how you support each other in daily life.
Getting to know people is fun. Getting to know people is sexy. Friendships can feel like romance (and are, in the classical sense). If we try to draw ONE shape that shows the line between friendship and sEXiNeSs we will always fail. It's not about making a template, it's down to the people involved to be honest with themselves about what's going on.
Having people to parse out relationship shit with is essential, I get no whiff of Heather ever saying otherwise. That's just not the conversation here. The conversation is about people (often men) who discuss their current partners flippantly and without affection.
I totally agree. If someone is a good partner, they will be sharing good anecdotes mixed with the challenges. You will get a sense of their parter as an actual person, not a vague, mysoginistic cliché. Unfortunately we live in a world where media has trained everyone (men and women) to see women as vague, mysoginistic clichés: the manic pixie dream girl, the old ball and chain, the femme fatale, the sleeping beauty waiting to be kissed, etc.
If you want a good male partner, find a man who actually likes individual, real women. And be friends with women who actually like other women! Because if you are a woman, liking and being liked by other women will teach you how to like yourself. And then you will be able to recognize what it feels like for a man to like you as a person, instead of just a vague idea.
Yes! Thanks for this great comment.
Exactly! Thanks for putting it so well.
I appreciate that you responded in good faith! Agree to disagree, respectfully of course, on the basis of the assumption that any conversation - let alone an entire relationship - can be fully & faithfully represented in a letter like this one. Which is fine — the letter-writer doesn't owe anyone that!! — but the tacit understanding that these letters are pieces of a life, and not full representations of them, is precisely why one's reading & responses to them deserve a little room for complexity.
I do think that, rather than being distinct conversations, there is a continuum between Heather's points & mine — I wouldn't have posted those points otherwise — but I'll grant you that I could have spent more time developing my reply if I'd wanted to :')
Have a good one out there!
Fantasy flatters, reality scratches. But only the scratch proves you were ever touching something real.
Wonderful, Polly! If we leave ourselves to our actual own devices, things are actually the way Rumi said way back in the day:
Some Kiss We Want
There is some kiss we want with
our whole lives, the touch of
spirit on the body.
Seawater
begs the pearl to break its shell.
And the lily, how passionately
it needs some wild darling!
At night, I open the window and ask
the moon to come and press its
face against mine.
Breathe into me.
Close the language-door and
open the love window.
The moon
won't use the door, only the window.
Jawallal Rumi
Translator: Coleman Barks
I just wrote a substack about this- and have been oscillating through fantasy and reality after finding the incandescent, but wholly flimsy, substance of fantasy in my life…. Oooph. As always, this was exactly what I needed. Thank you 🤍
Brilliant as usual. Bang on point every time.
Bravo! This was excellent.
I appreciate the comments on Elizabeth Gilbert's new book. I haven't read it and don't plan to. Something about all of it has just rubbed me the wrong way. Even all the 12 Step stuff she speaks of a lot....my understanding has been that part of the point of it all is to not make it a big ego thing, but to stay humble. So writing in detail about all of it? Just chafes for me.....Plus, I'm pretty private anyway, so the thought of writing such a book is mind-boggling.
I’m reading it now and wish it was better. It feels less like story telling and more like a self conscious sermon on addiction. Which is disappointing. I usually find her to be a strong writer.
These conversations have been helpful. I've been through quite an ordeal myself involving the healthcare system and a chronic heart condition. Pushing back against hundreds of thousands of dollars in crazy wrong bills. It's quite a story. I've had my moments of thinking I'll write about it.
But then I don't want to relive it all. I don't know if others would be interested. I'm pretty private and mainly have wanted to heal and move on. Making a huge big deal of it all seems so bizarre, actually, even with the pretty amazing moments of miracles cropping up just when I needed them.
So the Elizabeth Gilbert book and also Suleika Jaouad's writing about her cancer story....there's just something I'm not ashamed to say feels off-putting to me about it all. Is it jealousy? I don't think so. But the sort of guru vibe of it all....hmm.....and the privilege! The support of loving family and friends throughout. It's sort of mystifying to me and so I appreciate's Heather's comments. I haven't been able to put my finger on the exact nature of my discomfort with it all.
If you can help it, strive to be an interest that sparks in a vacuum.