Ugh this reminds me so much of someone I dated. What I would ask is: if this guy dropped all the avoidance and became a very stable committed person who wanted to marry you, would you still find him interesting? Or does part of you really want to be distracted by a difficult relationship to avoid thinking about something else?
Personally, I was avoiding grieving a 5 year relationship I had just ended, addressing my depression and ADHD, making decisions about my career, etc. It was easier to get caught up in what someone else wasn’t giving me than think about what I wasn’t giving myself.
Perfect timing. I was once hung up on a man just like this, and then the pandemic gave me the space and strength to put distance between us. I never thought I would get over needing his approval, but here I am in December 2022, he's texting me again, and I feel...nothing. That's because in the interim I realized that I needed to create my own joy, and found like-minded and exuberant friends who are brave, and passionate, and unapologetic about who they are. Once you experience that? Half-assessed just doesn't hold a candle to it.
Oh this is so great! When I was in that cycle of obsession with various unavailable men, I felt as though it was impossible to get out. There was *real grief* in letting go of the dream of being fulfilled by a half-assed motherfucker, which now sounds wild to me. But I remember how hard it was to imagine myself on the other side. And now that I am, and I've found someone who loves all of me, someone who shows the fuck up every single day, I am so glad I did the work to appreciate myself first. It's always a work in progress, but if you feel like you'll never get out of the shadow of these ridiculous (mostly white) dudes, there is hope, my friends. It'll hurt, but my god is it worth it.
Oof, I had a two year situationship that was EXACTLY like this. About a year in I mentioned that it ~could~ be a relationship, and he simply said he’d have to think about it and never brought up again. Queue me toning things down so I wouldn’t do anything to scare him off. I brought him thoughtful presents, dealt with him not scheduling anything until the last minute, never expected him to text me unless it was to schedule a time for me to drive 45 minutes to see him, and never asked for anything. The biggest red flag should’ve been when he looked at me and said, “you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance.”
Things started to fall apart when I had a night when I ~wasn’t~ a chill robot with no feelings. Suddenly I needed him to accommodate me — my huuuuge ask that scared him away was to tolerate me crying in his bathroom over something that wasn’t even about him. (Normally I saved those bathroom breakdowns for after he went to sleep, but one night I couldn’t keep it in, and even though I had warned him before I even went over to his place that I was Having A Bad Time he still acted like it was shocking and scary and he needed THREE MONTHS of space to recover.)
Eventually HE broke up with ME over TEXT, because he wanted to “see if he could meet someone he had an emotional connection with.” Like, buddy, it was not my fault he did not feel emotionally connected.
But now I’m dating a guy who is the complete opposite and I’ve realized how many other parts of myself I held back. I didn’t dance or make jokes or do anything remotely weird or annoying. With my current partner I am…so ridiculously weird. I do silly bits that I know he hates (in that loving, “why are you like this?” kind of way). It’s so freeing and so much more FUN to not constantly be stressed out and worried that one wrong step is going to make the whole thing fall apart. I I can even tell him when he does something that upsets me! In fact, he ~insists~ that I tell him about those things, and will pry them out of my conflict-avoidant self even if (especially if?) I start trying to backpedal and say that it’s no big deal. Because he wants to do better, for both of us!
I didn’t actually know at the time how much JOY I was sacrificing by toning down my personality to be the perfect, easygoing, Very Normal booty call. And frankly, I can now see that I was probably super boring to be around when I was acting like that. My boyfriend now loves me for my whole cackling “blowjob witch”/worm dancing/crying-in-the-bathroom (and sometimes on the couch!) self.
I also dated a guy like this. Well, he was okay with a relationship but long distance. On his own terms. But when we were together it was great! Perfect. Just don't talk about the future or your plans or your life. But he loves me and wants to be with me, I think! Why else keep me around.
(Spoiler alert, dumped me and married someone else a year later.)
You have to shift the frame from "why doesn't he want to be with me, I must suck" to "of course he wants to have some sort of relationship with me, I'm awesome". Because it's true. You are awesome enough that he's going to look past his avoidant self to make this sort of FWB thing with you, but you will never be good enough to make him become a relationship guy. Because he isn't that guy. He is already operating outside his comfort zone to keep you, but you won't get any more than this. And the time and energy you place into trying to convince him to go further outside that comfort zone is time and energy not spent finding the person who is right for you.
Every time I walked away from someone who wasn't giving me what I needed, I have been able to look back a year or two later and think, "whew, dodged a bullet, there."
At least half the time, they try to come back. Last weekend I got a call from someone who broke my heart twenty years ago, begging me to come visit. Telling me how beautiful I am. Saying it feels like yesterday. Showing he hasn't changed.
BOOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGG.
Long-term relationships are only interesting and worthwhile when both people are committed--to their OWN and ONE ANOTHER'S GROWTH. 'Avoidance' is simply another word for 'doesn't want to grow.'
You don't need to fear losing someone like that. What's infinitely more terrible is staying around while they drain you.
Each and every time I read a subject line and naively think for a second "oh this one won't apply to me," I am proven wrong. Thanks for illuminating those blinds spots so perfectly.
I am literally dating an avoidant man I met on Hinge 14 months ago and I could have written almost every syllable of LW’s letter. I even thought “oh he must actually be seeing both of us and that’s why he’s so overscheduled.” I don’t have to be a perfect sex kitten robot with him, but I do have to suppress my anxious attachment. He’s depressed and under stress and I keep hoping he will see me as a comfort rather than a burden. And feeling like a disposable burden is my lifelong struggle since infancy. So I am constantly at war with myself: am I just feeling my built in wiring sending false alarms or is he sincerely never going to find love for me? He has important qualities I’ve never found in a man before and like LW, when we’re together I don’t feel any of the doubt or strain. And yet…
Can you pls pls pls do a series on avoidant men and the ways in which women succumb to them and waste years of their lives doing so?
I wrote you a doozy of a letter about this a few weeks ago, but never sent it. When I re-read it, I realized how anxious some of my behaviors were and feared judgment in my fragile state [grimace emoji]. Also, I realized that the question - the central problem - needed to be better crystalized.
But this line in your response really stuck out to me: "In my experience, though, people who are unsure and a little remote and inexpressive tend to stay that way for decades. They put off relationships, they avoid marriage, or they get married and then divorce quickly." --
Big, if true. Because it's this belief that people can be loved into opening up and becoming secure and present ~if only the right conditions are created~ that holds me, and it sounds like so many of us, in the storm.
Still applies, chapters later. Can be married and have kids yet the reminder to give you the best part of yourself, and sit with yourself—what do you really want / need?— remains ever relevant even as context shifts.
This is a beautiful response to the writer’s question.
There is also a simpler answer that is colder but maybe really clear- what if he is just not that into you? Women are always reframing those guys into being scared of commitment- but maybe it’s way simpler. Haven’t you ever been in a “something” with a guy and you adore them but know you don’t want a relationship with them and know you aren’t and won’t ever be in love with them but you adore their company… And like Polly said - really what’s the difference if the effect is the same whether they are just very scared or if they are just not in love enough?
Who really has pumped the brakes so hard because of fear of commitment when they are in love with someone? Guys in love want to be together they don’t need to be coaxed in with fake overly easy going, cool girl pretexts.
I could have written this letter at 17, at 19, at 25...in 2018, in 2019, in 2020, and most recently this summer.
I was literally sitting at a dinner where the last guy said to me...while he'd said, "I love you," he wasn't sure he was in love with me. I was so great. Why couldn't I convince him to love me. Then paused for said convincing. I got up, walked out (and had to book the last flight home).
LW you *can* convince these guys to stay (for many years). I've done it too many times to count. But they're only half there. And when they forget your birthday or your latest published book or your name (yes, that's happened more than once with men living in my house), then they pull out the fact that you somehow twisted their arm.
This summer was some kind of crossroads because while I knew I could convince him to stay, to try, to get over (his words) being emotionally stunted, it wasn't about me. For once I want it to be about *me* and not shielding *him* from vulnerability.
To paraphrase a Polly quote that I keep on my bedroom mirror, "you want a full life with an adult who loves you like crazy..."
For people who have been in LW's situation, how do you deal with aftermath of being with someone who makes you feel like you have to be perfect in order to be loved? To me, there's a very strong psychological residue to this kind of situation where its impossible to believe that you could experience something more because you're hyper aware of what isn't quite right about you that doesn't go away once you're done with the relationship.
Edit: I think the reason why it's impossible to believe that is because it IS true that the parts of you he doesn't fully accept are not good enough. Not in general, of course everyone and anyone should radically love themselves. But parts of you were not good enough for him. And you love him. So it's not the easiest thing to not take personally, I suppose is what I'm trying to say.
I think we can conclude is that unavailable, emotionally delicate men - and their excuses - are as common as the day is long. There's nothing rare or special about it, no matter how tortured their story.
This response pairs so well with the last Captain Awkward letter, do all you advice columnists meet up for drinks and just co-ordinate a week to write some slam dunks or what?
Ugh this reminds me so much of someone I dated. What I would ask is: if this guy dropped all the avoidance and became a very stable committed person who wanted to marry you, would you still find him interesting? Or does part of you really want to be distracted by a difficult relationship to avoid thinking about something else?
Personally, I was avoiding grieving a 5 year relationship I had just ended, addressing my depression and ADHD, making decisions about my career, etc. It was easier to get caught up in what someone else wasn’t giving me than think about what I wasn’t giving myself.
Perfect timing. I was once hung up on a man just like this, and then the pandemic gave me the space and strength to put distance between us. I never thought I would get over needing his approval, but here I am in December 2022, he's texting me again, and I feel...nothing. That's because in the interim I realized that I needed to create my own joy, and found like-minded and exuberant friends who are brave, and passionate, and unapologetic about who they are. Once you experience that? Half-assessed just doesn't hold a candle to it.
Oh this is so great! When I was in that cycle of obsession with various unavailable men, I felt as though it was impossible to get out. There was *real grief* in letting go of the dream of being fulfilled by a half-assed motherfucker, which now sounds wild to me. But I remember how hard it was to imagine myself on the other side. And now that I am, and I've found someone who loves all of me, someone who shows the fuck up every single day, I am so glad I did the work to appreciate myself first. It's always a work in progress, but if you feel like you'll never get out of the shadow of these ridiculous (mostly white) dudes, there is hope, my friends. It'll hurt, but my god is it worth it.
Oof, I had a two year situationship that was EXACTLY like this. About a year in I mentioned that it ~could~ be a relationship, and he simply said he’d have to think about it and never brought up again. Queue me toning things down so I wouldn’t do anything to scare him off. I brought him thoughtful presents, dealt with him not scheduling anything until the last minute, never expected him to text me unless it was to schedule a time for me to drive 45 minutes to see him, and never asked for anything. The biggest red flag should’ve been when he looked at me and said, “you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance.”
Things started to fall apart when I had a night when I ~wasn’t~ a chill robot with no feelings. Suddenly I needed him to accommodate me — my huuuuge ask that scared him away was to tolerate me crying in his bathroom over something that wasn’t even about him. (Normally I saved those bathroom breakdowns for after he went to sleep, but one night I couldn’t keep it in, and even though I had warned him before I even went over to his place that I was Having A Bad Time he still acted like it was shocking and scary and he needed THREE MONTHS of space to recover.)
Eventually HE broke up with ME over TEXT, because he wanted to “see if he could meet someone he had an emotional connection with.” Like, buddy, it was not my fault he did not feel emotionally connected.
But now I’m dating a guy who is the complete opposite and I’ve realized how many other parts of myself I held back. I didn’t dance or make jokes or do anything remotely weird or annoying. With my current partner I am…so ridiculously weird. I do silly bits that I know he hates (in that loving, “why are you like this?” kind of way). It’s so freeing and so much more FUN to not constantly be stressed out and worried that one wrong step is going to make the whole thing fall apart. I I can even tell him when he does something that upsets me! In fact, he ~insists~ that I tell him about those things, and will pry them out of my conflict-avoidant self even if (especially if?) I start trying to backpedal and say that it’s no big deal. Because he wants to do better, for both of us!
I didn’t actually know at the time how much JOY I was sacrificing by toning down my personality to be the perfect, easygoing, Very Normal booty call. And frankly, I can now see that I was probably super boring to be around when I was acting like that. My boyfriend now loves me for my whole cackling “blowjob witch”/worm dancing/crying-in-the-bathroom (and sometimes on the couch!) self.
I also dated a guy like this. Well, he was okay with a relationship but long distance. On his own terms. But when we were together it was great! Perfect. Just don't talk about the future or your plans or your life. But he loves me and wants to be with me, I think! Why else keep me around.
(Spoiler alert, dumped me and married someone else a year later.)
You have to shift the frame from "why doesn't he want to be with me, I must suck" to "of course he wants to have some sort of relationship with me, I'm awesome". Because it's true. You are awesome enough that he's going to look past his avoidant self to make this sort of FWB thing with you, but you will never be good enough to make him become a relationship guy. Because he isn't that guy. He is already operating outside his comfort zone to keep you, but you won't get any more than this. And the time and energy you place into trying to convince him to go further outside that comfort zone is time and energy not spent finding the person who is right for you.
Every time I walked away from someone who wasn't giving me what I needed, I have been able to look back a year or two later and think, "whew, dodged a bullet, there."
At least half the time, they try to come back. Last weekend I got a call from someone who broke my heart twenty years ago, begging me to come visit. Telling me how beautiful I am. Saying it feels like yesterday. Showing he hasn't changed.
BOOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGG.
Long-term relationships are only interesting and worthwhile when both people are committed--to their OWN and ONE ANOTHER'S GROWTH. 'Avoidance' is simply another word for 'doesn't want to grow.'
You don't need to fear losing someone like that. What's infinitely more terrible is staying around while they drain you.
Each and every time I read a subject line and naively think for a second "oh this one won't apply to me," I am proven wrong. Thanks for illuminating those blinds spots so perfectly.
I am literally dating an avoidant man I met on Hinge 14 months ago and I could have written almost every syllable of LW’s letter. I even thought “oh he must actually be seeing both of us and that’s why he’s so overscheduled.” I don’t have to be a perfect sex kitten robot with him, but I do have to suppress my anxious attachment. He’s depressed and under stress and I keep hoping he will see me as a comfort rather than a burden. And feeling like a disposable burden is my lifelong struggle since infancy. So I am constantly at war with myself: am I just feeling my built in wiring sending false alarms or is he sincerely never going to find love for me? He has important qualities I’ve never found in a man before and like LW, when we’re together I don’t feel any of the doubt or strain. And yet…
This one got me so hard right now.
Can you pls pls pls do a series on avoidant men and the ways in which women succumb to them and waste years of their lives doing so?
I wrote you a doozy of a letter about this a few weeks ago, but never sent it. When I re-read it, I realized how anxious some of my behaviors were and feared judgment in my fragile state [grimace emoji]. Also, I realized that the question - the central problem - needed to be better crystalized.
But this line in your response really stuck out to me: "In my experience, though, people who are unsure and a little remote and inexpressive tend to stay that way for decades. They put off relationships, they avoid marriage, or they get married and then divorce quickly." --
Big, if true. Because it's this belief that people can be loved into opening up and becoming secure and present ~if only the right conditions are created~ that holds me, and it sounds like so many of us, in the storm.
Still applies, chapters later. Can be married and have kids yet the reminder to give you the best part of yourself, and sit with yourself—what do you really want / need?— remains ever relevant even as context shifts.
This is a beautiful response to the writer’s question.
There is also a simpler answer that is colder but maybe really clear- what if he is just not that into you? Women are always reframing those guys into being scared of commitment- but maybe it’s way simpler. Haven’t you ever been in a “something” with a guy and you adore them but know you don’t want a relationship with them and know you aren’t and won’t ever be in love with them but you adore their company… And like Polly said - really what’s the difference if the effect is the same whether they are just very scared or if they are just not in love enough?
Who really has pumped the brakes so hard because of fear of commitment when they are in love with someone? Guys in love want to be together they don’t need to be coaxed in with fake overly easy going, cool girl pretexts.
I could have written this letter at 17, at 19, at 25...in 2018, in 2019, in 2020, and most recently this summer.
I was literally sitting at a dinner where the last guy said to me...while he'd said, "I love you," he wasn't sure he was in love with me. I was so great. Why couldn't I convince him to love me. Then paused for said convincing. I got up, walked out (and had to book the last flight home).
LW you *can* convince these guys to stay (for many years). I've done it too many times to count. But they're only half there. And when they forget your birthday or your latest published book or your name (yes, that's happened more than once with men living in my house), then they pull out the fact that you somehow twisted their arm.
This summer was some kind of crossroads because while I knew I could convince him to stay, to try, to get over (his words) being emotionally stunted, it wasn't about me. For once I want it to be about *me* and not shielding *him* from vulnerability.
To paraphrase a Polly quote that I keep on my bedroom mirror, "you want a full life with an adult who loves you like crazy..."
FUCK. This is everything.
For people who have been in LW's situation, how do you deal with aftermath of being with someone who makes you feel like you have to be perfect in order to be loved? To me, there's a very strong psychological residue to this kind of situation where its impossible to believe that you could experience something more because you're hyper aware of what isn't quite right about you that doesn't go away once you're done with the relationship.
Edit: I think the reason why it's impossible to believe that is because it IS true that the parts of you he doesn't fully accept are not good enough. Not in general, of course everyone and anyone should radically love themselves. But parts of you were not good enough for him. And you love him. So it's not the easiest thing to not take personally, I suppose is what I'm trying to say.
I think we can conclude is that unavailable, emotionally delicate men - and their excuses - are as common as the day is long. There's nothing rare or special about it, no matter how tortured their story.
another slam dunk! thank you for this. <3
This response pairs so well with the last Captain Awkward letter, do all you advice columnists meet up for drinks and just co-ordinate a week to write some slam dunks or what?
https://captainawkward.com/2022/12/02/1387-im-dating-a-married-man-help/