Ugh this reminds me so much of someone I dated. What I would ask is: if this guy dropped all the avoidance and became a very stable committed person who wanted to marry you, would you still find him interesting? Or does part of you really want to be distracted by a difficult relationship to avoid thinking about something else?
Personally, I was avoiding grieving a 5 year relationship I had just ended, addressing my depression and ADHD, making decisions about my career, etc. It was easier to get caught up in what someone else wasn’t giving me than think about what I wasn’t giving myself.
Very self-aware comment! I’ve totally done this as well. Distraction is so much easier than facing the unknown and uncomfortable. I find that when I finally do face it, though, there’s massive relief.
Perfect timing. I was once hung up on a man just like this, and then the pandemic gave me the space and strength to put distance between us. I never thought I would get over needing his approval, but here I am in December 2022, he's texting me again, and I feel...nothing. That's because in the interim I realized that I needed to create my own joy, and found like-minded and exuberant friends who are brave, and passionate, and unapologetic about who they are. Once you experience that? Half-assessed just doesn't hold a candle to it.
Touché. It’s interesting to hear it from the woman’s point of view. In my twenties I used to be the asshole guy you’re talking about (generally). Then I got sober at 27 and things changed. But good for you! Love positive change like this. I relate a lot.
Oh this is so great! When I was in that cycle of obsession with various unavailable men, I felt as though it was impossible to get out. There was *real grief* in letting go of the dream of being fulfilled by a half-assed motherfucker, which now sounds wild to me. But I remember how hard it was to imagine myself on the other side. And now that I am, and I've found someone who loves all of me, someone who shows the fuck up every single day, I am so glad I did the work to appreciate myself first. It's always a work in progress, but if you feel like you'll never get out of the shadow of these ridiculous (mostly white) dudes, there is hope, my friends. It'll hurt, but my god is it worth it.
Also thank you @Alaya for mentioning race!!!!!!!!!!! (And the prevailing whiteness of fuck boyism) I’m brown and struggle sooooo much with my deep desire for intersectionality in these convos
GIRL. What I could write about these ridiculous white boys, it would be ESSAYS. Don't get me wrong, I've encountered brown and Black ones too, but there's something about the absolute deep-grained conviction the white boys have of their fundamental centrality that a brown boy, no matter how narcissistic or avoidant, just can't touch. This is basically why I swore off white boys after my last extremely avoidant relationship and I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS DECISION HIGHLY ENOUGH. There is a term used here in Mexico, "malinchismo" (which has a lot of problematic assumptions about an indigenous woman in a seriously complicated situation just tying to survive BUT) that I find so useful when considering my own past obsession with basing my self-worth on the approval of the men most approved of by our fucked up society (as Heather always delightfully calls out). Like, WHY white boys? Because they're Mr. Darcy, they're Prince Charming, they're the ones whose approval is supposed to elevate you and (if you're not white) protect you from a vicious racist world in the penumbra of their white power. In any case, malinchismo is basically the unjust elevation of whiteness as an ideal into a personal obsession, and I had a BAD case until I moved to Mexico. Deconstructing that, decolonizing my *heart*, was the best thing I ever did. I would never in a million years have realized my partner was such a wonderful human to spend my life with if I hadn't done that work first. So yeah, race is a whole other layer to this conversation and you're right, we ought to have it.
I am really grateful for this thread popping up, because honestly I do see some correlation between "just can't find an emotionally available man for some reason" and "only dates white men" in the women around me but I wouldn't know how to start that conversation. "Decolonizing your heart" is a great phrase!
Would probably go down better than "your taste in men is not just self-destructive but deeply rooted in white supremacist values you haven't fully acknowledged in yourself yet"
I see this as a complicated question about what women and society values and tolerates about men. I think a lot of people see a complete lack of accountability as the truest form of freedom and power, and unconsciously support the idea that white men deserve this more than anyone else, even as we roll our eyes at the guy in this letter.
Edit: to be clear I think values are defined by conflict. E.g. You may value accountability etc. but when you're faced with a white guy doing the whole "I can't be held accountable because I felt a Bad Emotion once" dance, maybe you find you value his right to say that unchallenged a little more?
Just came here to say that "Decolonising your heart" is the perfect expression.
I feel like a lot of what's happening now with gender diversity and intersectionality is a big global process of decolonisation, and from this Gen Xer's POV, it's something that gives me a lot of hope for younger generations. (And yeah, though I'm white, I also detoxed from white men a few years ago. My interest in anything they want, like, or have to say, disappeared sometime between the 2016 election and MeToo.)
I've been thinking about this 'decolonizing my heart' concept as a woman of color. The 'last' non white guy I dated was in 1990 in college. I thought the shift from American to European would make a difference. It did (in a bunch of ways) and it didn't (in all the ways that matter).
@Alaya hi I love you & cant cope with what you wrote in its brilliance resonance and also like TEACHING. Teaching meeeeee & so I need to sit with it all and scream into my pillow with strangulated excitement & for now I’ll just say that 1) you have done enough AND ALSO if you ever write more on the subject, the same way that I’m always frantically sharing Ask Polly columns & have bought “how to be a person in the world” as gifts for multiple people in my life now - I would do the SAME FOR ANY WRITING / sharing you did on the subject because you manage to capture such impossible nuances in Very few words & thats why I’m screaming into my pillow because this is the ask polly commentary I have been needing in my entire going on like 6-7 years + obsession. Thank you!!!!!!!
I'm deeply appreciative that you brought race into this conversation. It's my experience, and maybe yours, that there is a lack of direct communication and accountability in whiteness. Your comment is giving me a lot to reflect on about how this shows up in romantic relationships.
Oof, I had a two year situationship that was EXACTLY like this. About a year in I mentioned that it ~could~ be a relationship, and he simply said he’d have to think about it and never brought up again. Queue me toning things down so I wouldn’t do anything to scare him off. I brought him thoughtful presents, dealt with him not scheduling anything until the last minute, never expected him to text me unless it was to schedule a time for me to drive 45 minutes to see him, and never asked for anything. The biggest red flag should’ve been when he looked at me and said, “you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance.”
Things started to fall apart when I had a night when I ~wasn’t~ a chill robot with no feelings. Suddenly I needed him to accommodate me — my huuuuge ask that scared him away was to tolerate me crying in his bathroom over something that wasn’t even about him. (Normally I saved those bathroom breakdowns for after he went to sleep, but one night I couldn’t keep it in, and even though I had warned him before I even went over to his place that I was Having A Bad Time he still acted like it was shocking and scary and he needed THREE MONTHS of space to recover.)
Eventually HE broke up with ME over TEXT, because he wanted to “see if he could meet someone he had an emotional connection with.” Like, buddy, it was not my fault he did not feel emotionally connected.
But now I’m dating a guy who is the complete opposite and I’ve realized how many other parts of myself I held back. I didn’t dance or make jokes or do anything remotely weird or annoying. With my current partner I am…so ridiculously weird. I do silly bits that I know he hates (in that loving, “why are you like this?” kind of way). It’s so freeing and so much more FUN to not constantly be stressed out and worried that one wrong step is going to make the whole thing fall apart. I I can even tell him when he does something that upsets me! In fact, he ~insists~ that I tell him about those things, and will pry them out of my conflict-avoidant self even if (especially if?) I start trying to backpedal and say that it’s no big deal. Because he wants to do better, for both of us!
I didn’t actually know at the time how much JOY I was sacrificing by toning down my personality to be the perfect, easygoing, Very Normal booty call. And frankly, I can now see that I was probably super boring to be around when I was acting like that. My boyfriend now loves me for my whole cackling “blowjob witch”/worm dancing/crying-in-the-bathroom (and sometimes on the couch!) self.
Oh noes “ he looked at me and said, ‘you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance’ “ seriously you ladies need to stop dating my former and current boyfriends 😭
Two years?? Wow. Yeah. I get it though. We men mature slowly, often. And emotion scares us 😳. For me getting sober 12 years ago changed everything. But two years is way too long for him to not be with you all the way.
I also dated a guy like this. Well, he was okay with a relationship but long distance. On his own terms. But when we were together it was great! Perfect. Just don't talk about the future or your plans or your life. But he loves me and wants to be with me, I think! Why else keep me around.
(Spoiler alert, dumped me and married someone else a year later.)
You have to shift the frame from "why doesn't he want to be with me, I must suck" to "of course he wants to have some sort of relationship with me, I'm awesome". Because it's true. You are awesome enough that he's going to look past his avoidant self to make this sort of FWB thing with you, but you will never be good enough to make him become a relationship guy. Because he isn't that guy. He is already operating outside his comfort zone to keep you, but you won't get any more than this. And the time and energy you place into trying to convince him to go further outside that comfort zone is time and energy not spent finding the person who is right for you.
This is true. From a male perspective, I was always surprised during my crazy, alcoholic twenties how easily women seemed to flock to me. I was an asshole. Then I got sober in 2010 and the whole dynamic shifted. It became much harder to meet women. For a long time I wasn’t a relationship guy. That has thankfully changed. I’m in love now and it’s wonderful. Men DO mature emotionally more slowly than women, that is for sure.
Every time I walked away from someone who wasn't giving me what I needed, I have been able to look back a year or two later and think, "whew, dodged a bullet, there."
At least half the time, they try to come back. Last weekend I got a call from someone who broke my heart twenty years ago, begging me to come visit. Telling me how beautiful I am. Saying it feels like yesterday. Showing he hasn't changed.
BOOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGG.
Long-term relationships are only interesting and worthwhile when both people are committed--to their OWN and ONE ANOTHER'S GROWTH. 'Avoidance' is simply another word for 'doesn't want to grow.'
You don't need to fear losing someone like that. What's infinitely more terrible is staying around while they drain you.
Each and every time I read a subject line and naively think for a second "oh this one won't apply to me," I am proven wrong. Thanks for illuminating those blinds spots so perfectly.
I am literally dating an avoidant man I met on Hinge 14 months ago and I could have written almost every syllable of LW’s letter. I even thought “oh he must actually be seeing both of us and that’s why he’s so overscheduled.” I don’t have to be a perfect sex kitten robot with him, but I do have to suppress my anxious attachment. He’s depressed and under stress and I keep hoping he will see me as a comfort rather than a burden. And feeling like a disposable burden is my lifelong struggle since infancy. So I am constantly at war with myself: am I just feeling my built in wiring sending false alarms or is he sincerely never going to find love for me? He has important qualities I’ve never found in a man before and like LW, when we’re together I don’t feel any of the doubt or strain. And yet…
Still applies, chapters later. Can be married and have kids yet the reminder to give you the best part of yourself, and sit with yourself—what do you really want / need?— remains ever relevant even as context shifts.
This is a beautiful response to the writer’s question.
There is also a simpler answer that is colder but maybe really clear- what if he is just not that into you? Women are always reframing those guys into being scared of commitment- but maybe it’s way simpler. Haven’t you ever been in a “something” with a guy and you adore them but know you don’t want a relationship with them and know you aren’t and won’t ever be in love with them but you adore their company… And like Polly said - really what’s the difference if the effect is the same whether they are just very scared or if they are just not in love enough?
Who really has pumped the brakes so hard because of fear of commitment when they are in love with someone? Guys in love want to be together they don’t need to be coaxed in with fake overly easy going, cool girl pretexts.
Maybe. But I think it's not that simple with lots of men. I've watched avoidant male friends over-and-over-and-over in this cycle. The only women they've ever been super into sustainably were unavailable to them and disinterested (one was literally a lesbian). Having met many of the women, truly the only thing I could point to that was different about any given one they were into vs. not was the degree of distance the woman put between them.
I could have written this letter at 17, at 19, at 25...in 2018, in 2019, in 2020, and most recently this summer.
I was literally sitting at a dinner where the last guy said to me...while he'd said, "I love you," he wasn't sure he was in love with me. I was so great. Why couldn't I convince him to love me. Then paused for said convincing. I got up, walked out (and had to book the last flight home).
LW you *can* convince these guys to stay (for many years). I've done it too many times to count. But they're only half there. And when they forget your birthday or your latest published book or your name (yes, that's happened more than once with men living in my house), then they pull out the fact that you somehow twisted their arm.
This summer was some kind of crossroads because while I knew I could convince him to stay, to try, to get over (his words) being emotionally stunted, it wasn't about me. For once I want it to be about *me* and not shielding *him* from vulnerability.
To paraphrase a Polly quote that I keep on my bedroom mirror, "you want a full life with an adult who loves you like crazy..."
Can you pls pls pls do a series on avoidant men and the ways in which women succumb to them and waste years of their lives doing so?
I wrote you a doozy of a letter about this a few weeks ago, but never sent it. When I re-read it, I realized how anxious some of my behaviors were and feared judgment in my fragile state [grimace emoji]. Also, I realized that the question - the central problem - needed to be better crystalized.
But this line in your response really stuck out to me: "In my experience, though, people who are unsure and a little remote and inexpressive tend to stay that way for decades. They put off relationships, they avoid marriage, or they get married and then divorce quickly." --
Big, if true. Because it's this belief that people can be loved into opening up and becoming secure and present ~if only the right conditions are created~ that holds me, and it sounds like so many of us, in the storm.
i second this! i don't know that i had even picked up on my own tendency toward this until reading various ask polly columns addressing it head on. thank you, thank you, thank you. & could we start a support group?!? :)
As I'm apparently on a real advice column kick right now: Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue is aimed directly at women who keep going for emotionally unavailable men.
For people who have been in LW's situation, how do you deal with aftermath of being with someone who makes you feel like you have to be perfect in order to be loved? To me, there's a very strong psychological residue to this kind of situation where its impossible to believe that you could experience something more because you're hyper aware of what isn't quite right about you that doesn't go away once you're done with the relationship.
Edit: I think the reason why it's impossible to believe that is because it IS true that the parts of you he doesn't fully accept are not good enough. Not in general, of course everyone and anyone should radically love themselves. But parts of you were not good enough for him. And you love him. So it's not the easiest thing to not take personally, I suppose is what I'm trying to say.
I always felt this way with the various non-commital dudes I dated and pined for. That it must have been something about me that wasn’t good enough. There was an early Ask Polly where she talked about how some of us make a religion out of believing we aren’t good enough, and how much we loooove to find evidence that we’re right. What really helped this click into place for me, though, was when I actually got to meet the woman that my latest heartbreak actually DID want to be with, the one he was in love with.... and she was kind of basic? She had her fine qualities like anyone else, but there was next to nothing that I envied about her or even particularly admired. And it was a total lightbulb moment. You can put the most exquisite triple Creme de Delice cheese in front of some people, and they are going to uncomfortably push it around on their plate until a plastic wrapped slice of Kraft comes along. And that can be a real comfort, especially if most days you feel like Kraft 🤣
Some practical advice? Obviously, #1 is always go to therapy. Learn how to love/ the imperfect parts of yourself because nobody’s perfect, blah, blah, blah.
But the other less talked about part is to keep going on dates with other people. My absolute FAVORITE online dating opener to weed out avoidant folks who haven’t done any work on themselves and aren’t planning to is: “What’s the best advice your therapist has given you?” If they say “I’ve never been to therapy” then it’s an automatic pass. If you use it you *will* scare away a lot of people, but you’ll also gain a lot of insight into the people do DO respond.
I get this. For the record I’ve been in therapy for 12 years, on and off. Yet still this rule seems to me a little too rigid. People are nuanced and complex. Therapy is helpful, no question. But many can heal themselves with other methods as well. Reminds me of recovery from alcoholism. Im sober 12-plus years. I love and participate in AA, but I don’t think every sober person HAS to do AA.
Lol he's not emotionally open. He just acts like he is, and has done a convincing job of it. He CAN help being a liar and a cheat. Sorry to be harsh, but why are you falling for this? Why would you entertain the thought of hooking up with a cheater, going against your own morals and values?
Do you think the, "Smart, funny, attractive, articulate and literate, culturally and emotionally aware, many common interests, sexy and flirty," is real? When I dated a guy like this, he was just excellent at mirroring me (which was why he was successful at getting/staying married and cheating). He could not consistently hold up that mirror for more than a few months...
Mirroring is such a devious trick! My ex spouse was doing it but I had no idea —he just seemed like someone finally got me! But then slowly I noticed him telling my stories as if they happened to him (!) and adopting certain phrases I’d used since college and eventually I realized he was just a coattail barnacle! I did all the emotional labor of meeting, cultivating, and maintaining friends, and he just…got them too.
To his credit, if any of those new friends were broke or needed help with something he was right there ready to pick up dinner or help them move, so he wasn’t totally a lamprey, but he was only truly good like that in a crisis.
Flaws are fine as long as you can live with them. Can’t carry a tune or a terrible cool? No big deal. Will betray my love and trust? Dealbreaker. Maybe the lying cheater deserves love but I’d argue that sort of behavior disqualifies him.
I totally agree! I was in a situation with a guy similar in description who, after knowing each other for 3 yrs and starting to date, suddenly stopped messaging and actually pretended I hadn't asked him if we wanted to meet again, instead acting as if nothing had happened. Extremely hurtful! As soon as I showed my needs (i.e. wanting someone to reply) I felt I was "too much" and had to take it down a notch.
.. what helped me? #1 Exercise. #2 Eating well. #3 Hanging out with friends and doing an activity, rather than talking all the time (can quickly center around men and bitching about them). It takes the focus away from some of the pain. The bigger questions are more difficult. Self-love is difficult to me as a concept - we need other people to mirror this love too. We can't go around telling ourselves how attractive we are all the time - we need reflection of this self love otherwise it feels hollow (imo). Self-acceptance is more doable - takes the pressure off if I say yep I'm a bit weird and needy and anxious but that's cool (working on this tho, easier said than done). So I love Heather's response of building a temple - and making your own life something that you love being the main actor in, even if it's not perfect. Therapy can help, but I've found for me action over analysis works too. Otherwise the danger is you take everything personally and don't move forward.
I think we can conclude unavailable, emotionally delicate men - and their excuses - are as common as the day is long. There's nothing rare or special about it, no matter how tortured their story.
This response pairs so well with the last Captain Awkward letter, do all you advice columnists meet up for drinks and just co-ordinate a week to write some slam dunks or what?
I will also accept the explanation that men who can't commit move in sync with the planets and other mysterious forces that they cannot possibly explain or understand
Ugh this reminds me so much of someone I dated. What I would ask is: if this guy dropped all the avoidance and became a very stable committed person who wanted to marry you, would you still find him interesting? Or does part of you really want to be distracted by a difficult relationship to avoid thinking about something else?
Personally, I was avoiding grieving a 5 year relationship I had just ended, addressing my depression and ADHD, making decisions about my career, etc. It was easier to get caught up in what someone else wasn’t giving me than think about what I wasn’t giving myself.
Very self-aware comment! I’ve totally done this as well. Distraction is so much easier than facing the unknown and uncomfortable. I find that when I finally do face it, though, there’s massive relief.
Perfect timing. I was once hung up on a man just like this, and then the pandemic gave me the space and strength to put distance between us. I never thought I would get over needing his approval, but here I am in December 2022, he's texting me again, and I feel...nothing. That's because in the interim I realized that I needed to create my own joy, and found like-minded and exuberant friends who are brave, and passionate, and unapologetic about who they are. Once you experience that? Half-assessed just doesn't hold a candle to it.
Touché. It’s interesting to hear it from the woman’s point of view. In my twenties I used to be the asshole guy you’re talking about (generally). Then I got sober at 27 and things changed. But good for you! Love positive change like this. I relate a lot.
Michael Mohr
‘The Incompatibility of Being Alive’
https://reallife82.substack.com/
Oh this is so great! When I was in that cycle of obsession with various unavailable men, I felt as though it was impossible to get out. There was *real grief* in letting go of the dream of being fulfilled by a half-assed motherfucker, which now sounds wild to me. But I remember how hard it was to imagine myself on the other side. And now that I am, and I've found someone who loves all of me, someone who shows the fuck up every single day, I am so glad I did the work to appreciate myself first. It's always a work in progress, but if you feel like you'll never get out of the shadow of these ridiculous (mostly white) dudes, there is hope, my friends. It'll hurt, but my god is it worth it.
Also thank you @Alaya for mentioning race!!!!!!!!!!! (And the prevailing whiteness of fuck boyism) I’m brown and struggle sooooo much with my deep desire for intersectionality in these convos
GIRL. What I could write about these ridiculous white boys, it would be ESSAYS. Don't get me wrong, I've encountered brown and Black ones too, but there's something about the absolute deep-grained conviction the white boys have of their fundamental centrality that a brown boy, no matter how narcissistic or avoidant, just can't touch. This is basically why I swore off white boys after my last extremely avoidant relationship and I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS DECISION HIGHLY ENOUGH. There is a term used here in Mexico, "malinchismo" (which has a lot of problematic assumptions about an indigenous woman in a seriously complicated situation just tying to survive BUT) that I find so useful when considering my own past obsession with basing my self-worth on the approval of the men most approved of by our fucked up society (as Heather always delightfully calls out). Like, WHY white boys? Because they're Mr. Darcy, they're Prince Charming, they're the ones whose approval is supposed to elevate you and (if you're not white) protect you from a vicious racist world in the penumbra of their white power. In any case, malinchismo is basically the unjust elevation of whiteness as an ideal into a personal obsession, and I had a BAD case until I moved to Mexico. Deconstructing that, decolonizing my *heart*, was the best thing I ever did. I would never in a million years have realized my partner was such a wonderful human to spend my life with if I hadn't done that work first. So yeah, race is a whole other layer to this conversation and you're right, we ought to have it.
I am really grateful for this thread popping up, because honestly I do see some correlation between "just can't find an emotionally available man for some reason" and "only dates white men" in the women around me but I wouldn't know how to start that conversation. "Decolonizing your heart" is a great phrase!
Would probably go down better than "your taste in men is not just self-destructive but deeply rooted in white supremacist values you haven't fully acknowledged in yourself yet"
I see this as a complicated question about what women and society values and tolerates about men. I think a lot of people see a complete lack of accountability as the truest form of freedom and power, and unconsciously support the idea that white men deserve this more than anyone else, even as we roll our eyes at the guy in this letter.
Edit: to be clear I think values are defined by conflict. E.g. You may value accountability etc. but when you're faced with a white guy doing the whole "I can't be held accountable because I felt a Bad Emotion once" dance, maybe you find you value his right to say that unchallenged a little more?
Just came here to say that "Decolonising your heart" is the perfect expression.
I feel like a lot of what's happening now with gender diversity and intersectionality is a big global process of decolonisation, and from this Gen Xer's POV, it's something that gives me a lot of hope for younger generations. (And yeah, though I'm white, I also detoxed from white men a few years ago. My interest in anything they want, like, or have to say, disappeared sometime between the 2016 election and MeToo.)
I've been thinking about this 'decolonizing my heart' concept as a woman of color. The 'last' non white guy I dated was in 1990 in college. I thought the shift from American to European would make a difference. It did (in a bunch of ways) and it didn't (in all the ways that matter).
@Alaya hi I love you & cant cope with what you wrote in its brilliance resonance and also like TEACHING. Teaching meeeeee & so I need to sit with it all and scream into my pillow with strangulated excitement & for now I’ll just say that 1) you have done enough AND ALSO if you ever write more on the subject, the same way that I’m always frantically sharing Ask Polly columns & have bought “how to be a person in the world” as gifts for multiple people in my life now - I would do the SAME FOR ANY WRITING / sharing you did on the subject because you manage to capture such impossible nuances in Very few words & thats why I’m screaming into my pillow because this is the ask polly commentary I have been needing in my entire going on like 6-7 years + obsession. Thank you!!!!!!!
I'm deeply appreciative that you brought race into this conversation. It's my experience, and maybe yours, that there is a lack of direct communication and accountability in whiteness. Your comment is giving me a lot to reflect on about how this shows up in romantic relationships.
Oof, I had a two year situationship that was EXACTLY like this. About a year in I mentioned that it ~could~ be a relationship, and he simply said he’d have to think about it and never brought up again. Queue me toning things down so I wouldn’t do anything to scare him off. I brought him thoughtful presents, dealt with him not scheduling anything until the last minute, never expected him to text me unless it was to schedule a time for me to drive 45 minutes to see him, and never asked for anything. The biggest red flag should’ve been when he looked at me and said, “you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance.”
Things started to fall apart when I had a night when I ~wasn’t~ a chill robot with no feelings. Suddenly I needed him to accommodate me — my huuuuge ask that scared him away was to tolerate me crying in his bathroom over something that wasn’t even about him. (Normally I saved those bathroom breakdowns for after he went to sleep, but one night I couldn’t keep it in, and even though I had warned him before I even went over to his place that I was Having A Bad Time he still acted like it was shocking and scary and he needed THREE MONTHS of space to recover.)
Eventually HE broke up with ME over TEXT, because he wanted to “see if he could meet someone he had an emotional connection with.” Like, buddy, it was not my fault he did not feel emotionally connected.
But now I’m dating a guy who is the complete opposite and I’ve realized how many other parts of myself I held back. I didn’t dance or make jokes or do anything remotely weird or annoying. With my current partner I am…so ridiculously weird. I do silly bits that I know he hates (in that loving, “why are you like this?” kind of way). It’s so freeing and so much more FUN to not constantly be stressed out and worried that one wrong step is going to make the whole thing fall apart. I I can even tell him when he does something that upsets me! In fact, he ~insists~ that I tell him about those things, and will pry them out of my conflict-avoidant self even if (especially if?) I start trying to backpedal and say that it’s no big deal. Because he wants to do better, for both of us!
I didn’t actually know at the time how much JOY I was sacrificing by toning down my personality to be the perfect, easygoing, Very Normal booty call. And frankly, I can now see that I was probably super boring to be around when I was acting like that. My boyfriend now loves me for my whole cackling “blowjob witch”/worm dancing/crying-in-the-bathroom (and sometimes on the couch!) self.
Oh noes “ he looked at me and said, ‘you know what I like most about you? You’re so low maintenance’ “ seriously you ladies need to stop dating my former and current boyfriends 😭
love this. how joyful it is to be freely and completely ourselves around our partners!
I feel like I can act like myself, I just can’t ask him to give me anything
Thank you so much for sharing this xoxo
Two years?? Wow. Yeah. I get it though. We men mature slowly, often. And emotion scares us 😳. For me getting sober 12 years ago changed everything. But two years is way too long for him to not be with you all the way.
I also dated a guy like this. Well, he was okay with a relationship but long distance. On his own terms. But when we were together it was great! Perfect. Just don't talk about the future or your plans or your life. But he loves me and wants to be with me, I think! Why else keep me around.
(Spoiler alert, dumped me and married someone else a year later.)
You have to shift the frame from "why doesn't he want to be with me, I must suck" to "of course he wants to have some sort of relationship with me, I'm awesome". Because it's true. You are awesome enough that he's going to look past his avoidant self to make this sort of FWB thing with you, but you will never be good enough to make him become a relationship guy. Because he isn't that guy. He is already operating outside his comfort zone to keep you, but you won't get any more than this. And the time and energy you place into trying to convince him to go further outside that comfort zone is time and energy not spent finding the person who is right for you.
This is true. From a male perspective, I was always surprised during my crazy, alcoholic twenties how easily women seemed to flock to me. I was an asshole. Then I got sober in 2010 and the whole dynamic shifted. It became much harder to meet women. For a long time I wasn’t a relationship guy. That has thankfully changed. I’m in love now and it’s wonderful. Men DO mature emotionally more slowly than women, that is for sure.
Michael Mohr
‘The Incompatibility of Being Alive’
https://reallife82.substack.com/
Every time I walked away from someone who wasn't giving me what I needed, I have been able to look back a year or two later and think, "whew, dodged a bullet, there."
At least half the time, they try to come back. Last weekend I got a call from someone who broke my heart twenty years ago, begging me to come visit. Telling me how beautiful I am. Saying it feels like yesterday. Showing he hasn't changed.
BOOOOOORRRRRRRIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGG.
Long-term relationships are only interesting and worthwhile when both people are committed--to their OWN and ONE ANOTHER'S GROWTH. 'Avoidance' is simply another word for 'doesn't want to grow.'
You don't need to fear losing someone like that. What's infinitely more terrible is staying around while they drain you.
Yes 🙌
Each and every time I read a subject line and naively think for a second "oh this one won't apply to me," I am proven wrong. Thanks for illuminating those blinds spots so perfectly.
I am literally dating an avoidant man I met on Hinge 14 months ago and I could have written almost every syllable of LW’s letter. I even thought “oh he must actually be seeing both of us and that’s why he’s so overscheduled.” I don’t have to be a perfect sex kitten robot with him, but I do have to suppress my anxious attachment. He’s depressed and under stress and I keep hoping he will see me as a comfort rather than a burden. And feeling like a disposable burden is my lifelong struggle since infancy. So I am constantly at war with myself: am I just feeling my built in wiring sending false alarms or is he sincerely never going to find love for me? He has important qualities I’ve never found in a man before and like LW, when we’re together I don’t feel any of the doubt or strain. And yet…
This one got me so hard right now.
Does his name start with H? Lol
No, P—-but I really wanted to ask!
Not the same guy ;)
Sounds legitimately challenging.
Still applies, chapters later. Can be married and have kids yet the reminder to give you the best part of yourself, and sit with yourself—what do you really want / need?— remains ever relevant even as context shifts.
This is a beautiful response to the writer’s question.
There is also a simpler answer that is colder but maybe really clear- what if he is just not that into you? Women are always reframing those guys into being scared of commitment- but maybe it’s way simpler. Haven’t you ever been in a “something” with a guy and you adore them but know you don’t want a relationship with them and know you aren’t and won’t ever be in love with them but you adore their company… And like Polly said - really what’s the difference if the effect is the same whether they are just very scared or if they are just not in love enough?
Who really has pumped the brakes so hard because of fear of commitment when they are in love with someone? Guys in love want to be together they don’t need to be coaxed in with fake overly easy going, cool girl pretexts.
Maybe. But I think it's not that simple with lots of men. I've watched avoidant male friends over-and-over-and-over in this cycle. The only women they've ever been super into sustainably were unavailable to them and disinterested (one was literally a lesbian). Having met many of the women, truly the only thing I could point to that was different about any given one they were into vs. not was the degree of distance the woman put between them.
I like the complexity this adds to the discussion
I could have written this letter at 17, at 19, at 25...in 2018, in 2019, in 2020, and most recently this summer.
I was literally sitting at a dinner where the last guy said to me...while he'd said, "I love you," he wasn't sure he was in love with me. I was so great. Why couldn't I convince him to love me. Then paused for said convincing. I got up, walked out (and had to book the last flight home).
LW you *can* convince these guys to stay (for many years). I've done it too many times to count. But they're only half there. And when they forget your birthday or your latest published book or your name (yes, that's happened more than once with men living in my house), then they pull out the fact that you somehow twisted their arm.
This summer was some kind of crossroads because while I knew I could convince him to stay, to try, to get over (his words) being emotionally stunted, it wasn't about me. For once I want it to be about *me* and not shielding *him* from vulnerability.
To paraphrase a Polly quote that I keep on my bedroom mirror, "you want a full life with an adult who loves you like crazy..."
🫰🫰🔥
Can you pls pls pls do a series on avoidant men and the ways in which women succumb to them and waste years of their lives doing so?
I wrote you a doozy of a letter about this a few weeks ago, but never sent it. When I re-read it, I realized how anxious some of my behaviors were and feared judgment in my fragile state [grimace emoji]. Also, I realized that the question - the central problem - needed to be better crystalized.
But this line in your response really stuck out to me: "In my experience, though, people who are unsure and a little remote and inexpressive tend to stay that way for decades. They put off relationships, they avoid marriage, or they get married and then divorce quickly." --
Big, if true. Because it's this belief that people can be loved into opening up and becoming secure and present ~if only the right conditions are created~ that holds me, and it sounds like so many of us, in the storm.
i second this! i don't know that i had even picked up on my own tendency toward this until reading various ask polly columns addressing it head on. thank you, thank you, thank you. & could we start a support group?!? :)
I’ll start a Discord server for real
Seriously!
https://discord.gg/UwCj9C2U
As I'm apparently on a real advice column kick right now: Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue is aimed directly at women who keep going for emotionally unavailable men.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/
YES THIS IN A NUTSHELL!
I do blame Mr. Darcy a little for this, too.
😂😂🔥
FUCK. This is everything.
For people who have been in LW's situation, how do you deal with aftermath of being with someone who makes you feel like you have to be perfect in order to be loved? To me, there's a very strong psychological residue to this kind of situation where its impossible to believe that you could experience something more because you're hyper aware of what isn't quite right about you that doesn't go away once you're done with the relationship.
Edit: I think the reason why it's impossible to believe that is because it IS true that the parts of you he doesn't fully accept are not good enough. Not in general, of course everyone and anyone should radically love themselves. But parts of you were not good enough for him. And you love him. So it's not the easiest thing to not take personally, I suppose is what I'm trying to say.
I always felt this way with the various non-commital dudes I dated and pined for. That it must have been something about me that wasn’t good enough. There was an early Ask Polly where she talked about how some of us make a religion out of believing we aren’t good enough, and how much we loooove to find evidence that we’re right. What really helped this click into place for me, though, was when I actually got to meet the woman that my latest heartbreak actually DID want to be with, the one he was in love with.... and she was kind of basic? She had her fine qualities like anyone else, but there was next to nothing that I envied about her or even particularly admired. And it was a total lightbulb moment. You can put the most exquisite triple Creme de Delice cheese in front of some people, and they are going to uncomfortably push it around on their plate until a plastic wrapped slice of Kraft comes along. And that can be a real comfort, especially if most days you feel like Kraft 🤣
Some practical advice? Obviously, #1 is always go to therapy. Learn how to love/ the imperfect parts of yourself because nobody’s perfect, blah, blah, blah.
But the other less talked about part is to keep going on dates with other people. My absolute FAVORITE online dating opener to weed out avoidant folks who haven’t done any work on themselves and aren’t planning to is: “What’s the best advice your therapist has given you?” If they say “I’ve never been to therapy” then it’s an automatic pass. If you use it you *will* scare away a lot of people, but you’ll also gain a lot of insight into the people do DO respond.
I get this. For the record I’ve been in therapy for 12 years, on and off. Yet still this rule seems to me a little too rigid. People are nuanced and complex. Therapy is helpful, no question. But many can heal themselves with other methods as well. Reminds me of recovery from alcoholism. Im sober 12-plus years. I love and participate in AA, but I don’t think every sober person HAS to do AA.
Lol he's not emotionally open. He just acts like he is, and has done a convincing job of it. He CAN help being a liar and a cheat. Sorry to be harsh, but why are you falling for this? Why would you entertain the thought of hooking up with a cheater, going against your own morals and values?
He’s 65, he knows cheating is wrong.
Do you think the, "Smart, funny, attractive, articulate and literate, culturally and emotionally aware, many common interests, sexy and flirty," is real? When I dated a guy like this, he was just excellent at mirroring me (which was why he was successful at getting/staying married and cheating). He could not consistently hold up that mirror for more than a few months...
Mirroring is such a devious trick! My ex spouse was doing it but I had no idea —he just seemed like someone finally got me! But then slowly I noticed him telling my stories as if they happened to him (!) and adopting certain phrases I’d used since college and eventually I realized he was just a coattail barnacle! I did all the emotional labor of meeting, cultivating, and maintaining friends, and he just…got them too.
To his credit, if any of those new friends were broke or needed help with something he was right there ready to pick up dinner or help them move, so he wasn’t totally a lamprey, but he was only truly good like that in a crisis.
Flaws are fine as long as you can live with them. Can’t carry a tune or a terrible cool? No big deal. Will betray my love and trust? Dealbreaker. Maybe the lying cheater deserves love but I’d argue that sort of behavior disqualifies him.
Ha! I dated him!
Yeah it can get slippery here 🔥
I totally agree! I was in a situation with a guy similar in description who, after knowing each other for 3 yrs and starting to date, suddenly stopped messaging and actually pretended I hadn't asked him if we wanted to meet again, instead acting as if nothing had happened. Extremely hurtful! As soon as I showed my needs (i.e. wanting someone to reply) I felt I was "too much" and had to take it down a notch.
.. what helped me? #1 Exercise. #2 Eating well. #3 Hanging out with friends and doing an activity, rather than talking all the time (can quickly center around men and bitching about them). It takes the focus away from some of the pain. The bigger questions are more difficult. Self-love is difficult to me as a concept - we need other people to mirror this love too. We can't go around telling ourselves how attractive we are all the time - we need reflection of this self love otherwise it feels hollow (imo). Self-acceptance is more doable - takes the pressure off if I say yep I'm a bit weird and needy and anxious but that's cool (working on this tho, easier said than done). So I love Heather's response of building a temple - and making your own life something that you love being the main actor in, even if it's not perfect. Therapy can help, but I've found for me action over analysis works too. Otherwise the danger is you take everything personally and don't move forward.
Exercise always helps!!!
🔥🔥🔥
I think we can conclude unavailable, emotionally delicate men - and their excuses - are as common as the day is long. There's nothing rare or special about it, no matter how tortured their story.
another slam dunk! thank you for this. <3
This response pairs so well with the last Captain Awkward letter, do all you advice columnists meet up for drinks and just co-ordinate a week to write some slam dunks or what?
https://captainawkward.com/2022/12/02/1387-im-dating-a-married-man-help/
I will also accept the explanation that men who can't commit move in sync with the planets and other mysterious forces that they cannot possibly explain or understand