You know, it took me more than fifty years to understand that I could NEVER have a truly intimate relationship with a romantic partner until I gave myself permission to stop Being A Good Person.
Because women are conditioned to be so infinitely kind, patient, tolerant, clean, forgiving and understanding that we completely lose sight of our actual personalities.
I sincerely believed that I had to be the perfect patient receptacle of whatever bullshit any random man threw my way, and eventually, when I was perfect ENOUGH, my needs would get met.
It's only after setting boundaries which include my ACTUAL NEEDS that I can start discerning what my responsibilities to others entail. And when those needs go consistently unmet, my responsibilities are very, very few.
This is a good, concise summary of my rambling diatribe. Thank you! I also needed to be a thorny impossible person first, in order to become someone who could feel my way to a more respectful and collaborative mindset. It's impossible to honor other people's desires when you never honor your own.
Thanks! The funny thing is, I only noticed it was a summary of what you wrote in retrospect. I almost deleted it before posting because it felt like a non-sequitur. It is so weird how our minds go, "tree! Tree! Tree! Tree! Nope, no forest here!"
I didn't mean to imply that you were just summing up my argument! More like you took in the forest and said, "If you look at this one tree right here, it tells the whole story." And I think the persistence of shame over not being pleasing, efficient, and productive like a high-end appliance is a lifelong struggle for most. You think you're over it, and then anytime a foul mood sets in, there's some element of shame there, some expectation that says "you should be better at this" or "you should've put this behind you by now."
My partner and I have a rule that we bring up Big Emotions when they’re at a 4 (on a scale of 1-10). It helps a lot, because we don’t get all the petty little things constantly coming up BUT ALSO we catch them before they get bad. AND “we need to talk” doesn’t activate the “Oh no they’re pissed at me and this is going to be a huge fight and we’re going to break up” defensive response that would normally come from that phrase. It’s made it soooo much easier to be open and listen, and also makes it easier for my avoidant self to actually air my own grievances instead of holding them in until I feel like the best option is to just run away.
This is a great rule, and can be harder to enact than it sounds! Nothing will make you realize you just don't EVER want to talk like having your top 2 reasons be "I'm too mad" and "I'm not mad enough".
I would also add: try to avoid starting those conversations super late at night, even though that always seems like The Best Time. It so rarely is.
Mar 27, 2023·edited Mar 27, 2023Liked by Heather Havrilesky
With the freedom to talk a river of shit comes the responsibility to create that freedom for others around you. That goes for knives and dinner rolls alike.
It's a lot of work but then one day you notice how you and your beloved get to cheerfully trade insults and dumb kneejerk opinions while still fundamentally respecting each other and being capable of deep conversation and it's just a deep breath and cool drink of water and pure love all at once. Wouldn't trade it for anything.
Mar 27, 2023·edited Mar 27, 2023Liked by Heather Havrilesky
Thank you for explaining that the Knife part in us actually has a warm, soft core (e.g. a sweet bunny).
I've come to understand this soft part in me more as a big rubber duck (like the Canada rubber duck that everyone seemed to hate) because I see and understand rubber ducks as pure fun, joy, playfulness, and lightheartedness.
I am at a point where I can hold space to laugh, poke, and prod at this rubber duck with my Knife part, without poking a hole in the duck (losing respect for the Duck or feeling ashamed of it), because I accept this Duck part of me is central to my wholeness and I respect what it likes, wants, and needs. I have developed a level of security with the Duck that allows me to give my Knife part space to jab but it I notice that it actually feels blunt and not sharp. Meaning, I'm not hurting myself with my jokes and insults. My dark ass humour is a fun part of me that needs to be seen and heard and given space to have fun.
And for me to be in DEEP relationship with people, I have to search for the rubber ducks in other people, and poke and prod them as well. I want to be able to engage my Knife with someone I love and want to love deeply. So that will require others to have a level of security with their softness/sweet bunny/rubber duck so that we can truly enjoy each other, have some real fun and feel connected on a deeply human level. Because real, whole people like real, whole people.
"He said 'they’re work pants.' I said 'okay, boomer.'" Heather, that is a tip top "he said, she said" if there ever was one. - totally cracked me up
Loved your advice, strongly agree, she's not asking for what she wants. Also, I love how you could see -her- and not just her needs. It did feel like she was missing herself in her letter.
Question, how did you sort out the "The merest whiff of need" from "big big talker"? I got totally tripped up when I read that. It sort of made me think that she picked the same kind of guy again.
This guy isn't a bottomless pit. He's secure. That's why she feels like a villain all the time. She can recognize that his needs are reasonable, that he just talks a lot, that he doesn't mind expressing his emotions but he's not trying to engulf her, he just wants real intimacy.
When someone shows up and it's clearly not toxic yet you feel a sort of disgust or revulsion anyway, that's when you realize what an avoidant mess you are. And it takes a lot of work to keep loving another person when your constant impulse is to turn away from love that's truly present and open. But that's the work she needs to do, if she wants intimacy and companionship that's built on a solid foundation of honesty.
That's hard work for most of us. People think what I mean by that is that all marriages are hard and you should stick with hard things no matter what -- as if I'm advocating for mutual suffering. That's not it. The start of great relationships are often easy until you get into the weeds of real intimacy, and then the real work begins for both partners. But many people back away from that work, or they decide that there's something wrong with the person who wants to reach that deeper level of honesty and vulnerability, or they say they're in but they can't get there without feeling afraid or anxious. OR what you see clearly in that intimate space is that you don't love the other person enough or they're manipulative or dishonest, etc.
Looking at the truth is the hardest thing. I think right now she's grappling with the truth of who she is and what she wants and needs, more than the truth of who he is. That's a very exciting place but it's terrifying!
Thank you so much. There was much more in her letter. I was still missing key stuff after I read it a couple times. I could make a joke here about how I need to learn how to read, but it's more than that. I'm parsing my preconceptions. It was much easier to empathize with how she feels about how solid her new guy is, after your help above, but I'm wondering how I will ever harbor fewer self inflicted blindnesses. They seem to be endless. I aspire to be better at listening but I find that I still only hear certain things. It's still so automatic for me to search for understanding and meaning in too few passages. -- Master class in writing -- read very carefully!
I relate to the guy here a bit cause I’ve always been a deep person, a long talker, wanting deep intimacy. But I also love to listen to other people’s stuff. Give and take, right?
I spent years feeling like a villain because I couldn’t listen to my boyfriends the way they wanted. Turns out I listen fine, just not to the specific type of very expressive guy I was dating. You probably do too. It’s a lot easier to recognize our shared human vulnerability and speak up for yourself without blaming and all that when you don’t have the emotional equivalent of a pillow pressed over your face every goddamn day.
I will say that dating people who don’t feel like bottomless pits of endless, sucking need is crazy scary, because need is suffocating but it’s also an ironclad guarantee that they’ll never ever leave you. (Which is where the whole avoidant people are also anxious thing comes in.) It takes a lot of getting used to and I’m not really there yet. But it already beats the alternatives.
This piece really resonated with me. Here’s a thought spawned while cogitating on it in the dentist’s chair getting my teeth cleaned.
It seemed to me that the LW was asking for a lot more than one can reasonably ask from another person. There’s going to be times-- lots of them in fact -- when you simply won’t be in sync with your partner and vice versa too.
One other thing. You can properly expect your brain surgeon to be at the top of their game all the time, but to expect or demand it from others is to ask for constant disappointment.
This hit hard today. It's difficult to remember, and even harder to locate, the sweet little bunny at the core of us, especially when that sweet little bunny was hurt deeply and learned to hide early in life. Like other commenters have mentioned, what has been central to my marriage is not only learning to recognize when my inner bunny is crying out for love and gentleness and understanding (usually when I'm at my most avoidant) but also getting to know my partner's inner bunny, another soft, hurt, needy little kid just like me. A union between two sharp knives can be complicated and messy, but the sharper the knife, the softer the bunny. AND BUNNIES ARE FREAKING ADORABLE!
Fantastic response. As a man, I loved the subtext (in my own biased view). My girlfriend just a few days ago became my fiancé. She also happens to often (too often) be right about stuff. It’s so frustrating!!! 😂. But I’ve learned to go on 3-5 mile runs and just generally accept the fact that she’s often right. It’s hard at times but I’m getting there.
Another great point, and something I’ve learned the hard way: Listening to and getting vulnerable and nakedly honest with each other is crucial. You gotta tell each other what you’re wanting/needing. No one can read minds. Just take the risk and tell the truth. What’s the worst that could happen? They leave you? Then it truly wasn’t meant to be. And that is highly unlikely to happen. I think most people in relationships get into trouble by not speaking up, making assumptions, holding onto unexpressed resentments.
You know, it took me more than fifty years to understand that I could NEVER have a truly intimate relationship with a romantic partner until I gave myself permission to stop Being A Good Person.
Because women are conditioned to be so infinitely kind, patient, tolerant, clean, forgiving and understanding that we completely lose sight of our actual personalities.
I sincerely believed that I had to be the perfect patient receptacle of whatever bullshit any random man threw my way, and eventually, when I was perfect ENOUGH, my needs would get met.
It's only after setting boundaries which include my ACTUAL NEEDS that I can start discerning what my responsibilities to others entail. And when those needs go consistently unmet, my responsibilities are very, very few.
This is a good, concise summary of my rambling diatribe. Thank you! I also needed to be a thorny impossible person first, in order to become someone who could feel my way to a more respectful and collaborative mindset. It's impossible to honor other people's desires when you never honor your own.
Thanks! The funny thing is, I only noticed it was a summary of what you wrote in retrospect. I almost deleted it before posting because it felt like a non-sequitur. It is so weird how our minds go, "tree! Tree! Tree! Tree! Nope, no forest here!"
I didn't mean to imply that you were just summing up my argument! More like you took in the forest and said, "If you look at this one tree right here, it tells the whole story." And I think the persistence of shame over not being pleasing, efficient, and productive like a high-end appliance is a lifelong struggle for most. You think you're over it, and then anytime a foul mood sets in, there's some element of shame there, some expectation that says "you should be better at this" or "you should've put this behind you by now."
I don’t know; I’ve dated a fair amount of unkind women. And the opposite.
My partner and I have a rule that we bring up Big Emotions when they’re at a 4 (on a scale of 1-10). It helps a lot, because we don’t get all the petty little things constantly coming up BUT ALSO we catch them before they get bad. AND “we need to talk” doesn’t activate the “Oh no they’re pissed at me and this is going to be a huge fight and we’re going to break up” defensive response that would normally come from that phrase. It’s made it soooo much easier to be open and listen, and also makes it easier for my avoidant self to actually air my own grievances instead of holding them in until I feel like the best option is to just run away.
This is a great rule, and can be harder to enact than it sounds! Nothing will make you realize you just don't EVER want to talk like having your top 2 reasons be "I'm too mad" and "I'm not mad enough".
I would also add: try to avoid starting those conversations super late at night, even though that always seems like The Best Time. It so rarely is.
Kinda like this 👍
With the freedom to talk a river of shit comes the responsibility to create that freedom for others around you. That goes for knives and dinner rolls alike.
It's a lot of work but then one day you notice how you and your beloved get to cheerfully trade insults and dumb kneejerk opinions while still fundamentally respecting each other and being capable of deep conversation and it's just a deep breath and cool drink of water and pure love all at once. Wouldn't trade it for anything.
❤️❤️👌
Thank you for explaining that the Knife part in us actually has a warm, soft core (e.g. a sweet bunny).
I've come to understand this soft part in me more as a big rubber duck (like the Canada rubber duck that everyone seemed to hate) because I see and understand rubber ducks as pure fun, joy, playfulness, and lightheartedness.
I am at a point where I can hold space to laugh, poke, and prod at this rubber duck with my Knife part, without poking a hole in the duck (losing respect for the Duck or feeling ashamed of it), because I accept this Duck part of me is central to my wholeness and I respect what it likes, wants, and needs. I have developed a level of security with the Duck that allows me to give my Knife part space to jab but it I notice that it actually feels blunt and not sharp. Meaning, I'm not hurting myself with my jokes and insults. My dark ass humour is a fun part of me that needs to be seen and heard and given space to have fun.
And for me to be in DEEP relationship with people, I have to search for the rubber ducks in other people, and poke and prod them as well. I want to be able to engage my Knife with someone I love and want to love deeply. So that will require others to have a level of security with their softness/sweet bunny/rubber duck so that we can truly enjoy each other, have some real fun and feel connected on a deeply human level. Because real, whole people like real, whole people.
Beautifully said ❤️👌
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. That was a wild ride.
yup
easy for HER to say " turn off the internet" when you might miss sharp knives in drag as dinner rolls
while being reminded that watership down is basically the template for Civilisatiin As We Know It
at least we know who wears the (work) pants in THAT family
or
not?
"He said 'they’re work pants.' I said 'okay, boomer.'" Heather, that is a tip top "he said, she said" if there ever was one. - totally cracked me up
Loved your advice, strongly agree, she's not asking for what she wants. Also, I love how you could see -her- and not just her needs. It did feel like she was missing herself in her letter.
Question, how did you sort out the "The merest whiff of need" from "big big talker"? I got totally tripped up when I read that. It sort of made me think that she picked the same kind of guy again.
This guy isn't a bottomless pit. He's secure. That's why she feels like a villain all the time. She can recognize that his needs are reasonable, that he just talks a lot, that he doesn't mind expressing his emotions but he's not trying to engulf her, he just wants real intimacy.
When someone shows up and it's clearly not toxic yet you feel a sort of disgust or revulsion anyway, that's when you realize what an avoidant mess you are. And it takes a lot of work to keep loving another person when your constant impulse is to turn away from love that's truly present and open. But that's the work she needs to do, if she wants intimacy and companionship that's built on a solid foundation of honesty.
That's hard work for most of us. People think what I mean by that is that all marriages are hard and you should stick with hard things no matter what -- as if I'm advocating for mutual suffering. That's not it. The start of great relationships are often easy until you get into the weeds of real intimacy, and then the real work begins for both partners. But many people back away from that work, or they decide that there's something wrong with the person who wants to reach that deeper level of honesty and vulnerability, or they say they're in but they can't get there without feeling afraid or anxious. OR what you see clearly in that intimate space is that you don't love the other person enough or they're manipulative or dishonest, etc.
Looking at the truth is the hardest thing. I think right now she's grappling with the truth of who she is and what she wants and needs, more than the truth of who he is. That's a very exciting place but it's terrifying!
Thank you so much. There was much more in her letter. I was still missing key stuff after I read it a couple times. I could make a joke here about how I need to learn how to read, but it's more than that. I'm parsing my preconceptions. It was much easier to empathize with how she feels about how solid her new guy is, after your help above, but I'm wondering how I will ever harbor fewer self inflicted blindnesses. They seem to be endless. I aspire to be better at listening but I find that I still only hear certain things. It's still so automatic for me to search for understanding and meaning in too few passages. -- Master class in writing -- read very carefully!
I relate to the guy here a bit cause I’ve always been a deep person, a long talker, wanting deep intimacy. But I also love to listen to other people’s stuff. Give and take, right?
You should drop the guy.
I spent years feeling like a villain because I couldn’t listen to my boyfriends the way they wanted. Turns out I listen fine, just not to the specific type of very expressive guy I was dating. You probably do too. It’s a lot easier to recognize our shared human vulnerability and speak up for yourself without blaming and all that when you don’t have the emotional equivalent of a pillow pressed over your face every goddamn day.
I will say that dating people who don’t feel like bottomless pits of endless, sucking need is crazy scary, because need is suffocating but it’s also an ironclad guarantee that they’ll never ever leave you. (Which is where the whole avoidant people are also anxious thing comes in.) It takes a lot of getting used to and I’m not really there yet. But it already beats the alternatives.
This piece really resonated with me. Here’s a thought spawned while cogitating on it in the dentist’s chair getting my teeth cleaned.
It seemed to me that the LW was asking for a lot more than one can reasonably ask from another person. There’s going to be times-- lots of them in fact -- when you simply won’t be in sync with your partner and vice versa too.
One other thing. You can properly expect your brain surgeon to be at the top of their game all the time, but to expect or demand it from others is to ask for constant disappointment.
Very true 👌
This hit hard today. It's difficult to remember, and even harder to locate, the sweet little bunny at the core of us, especially when that sweet little bunny was hurt deeply and learned to hide early in life. Like other commenters have mentioned, what has been central to my marriage is not only learning to recognize when my inner bunny is crying out for love and gentleness and understanding (usually when I'm at my most avoidant) but also getting to know my partner's inner bunny, another soft, hurt, needy little kid just like me. A union between two sharp knives can be complicated and messy, but the sharper the knife, the softer the bunny. AND BUNNIES ARE FREAKING ADORABLE!
Fantastic response. As a man, I loved the subtext (in my own biased view). My girlfriend just a few days ago became my fiancé. She also happens to often (too often) be right about stuff. It’s so frustrating!!! 😂. But I’ve learned to go on 3-5 mile runs and just generally accept the fact that she’s often right. It’s hard at times but I’m getting there.
Another great point, and something I’ve learned the hard way: Listening to and getting vulnerable and nakedly honest with each other is crucial. You gotta tell each other what you’re wanting/needing. No one can read minds. Just take the risk and tell the truth. What’s the worst that could happen? They leave you? Then it truly wasn’t meant to be. And that is highly unlikely to happen. I think most people in relationships get into trouble by not speaking up, making assumptions, holding onto unexpressed resentments.
Michael Mohr
‘The Incompatibility of Being Alive’
https://reallife82.substack.com/
Homie don’t play that shit 🐰🗡️