As someone who has embraced being “exactly the right kind of fucked up to do this” let me tell you: I’ve treated dating apps as an experiment for the past…6, 7, maybe 8 years. To the point of literally having spreadsheets of every date, downloading & analyzing the data from every conversation, testing opening lines, making infographics about which app has the best swipe-to-date conversion, etc. I don’t disagree with any of the advice in this response but I can provide some real-world numbers to set your standards to, because (at least for me) it makes the apps better when you have some sort of basis for these things…
First, fuck Bumble. I know, I know… it seems like the most feminist of the apps, but the men who use it only switch over to it after they’re tired of women not responding to their messages and therefore they decide not to reply. Bumble has the lowest match-to-conversation rate of any app I’ve tried.
Second, expect to swipe left on 90% of people and maybe half of the 10% of the people you swipe right on will also swipe right with you. So for every 100, you’ll match with 5. Imagine going into a bar packed with people. How many will you want to go on a date with? That’s just statistics.
Third - and this is the most important - I’ve downloaded years’ worth of conversations and the biggest thing I learned is that **30 messages** (combined) is the ideal number before going on/asking for a date. Fewer than that, you don’t really know if you vibe. More than that, one of you is probably not actually interested in meeting up.
(I have more tips, but the fire alarm just started going off in my apartment building so I guess I should evacuate 🙄)
Alright, I’m back and my building didn’t burn down! Which is a nice segue to my next tip — if you want to have conversations that don’t feel superficial (because, dang, most of them don’t go anywhere) share a random personal detail from your day and see where it goes. No more “hi, how are you? I’m doing well”. Jump straight into “I just spent an hour outside while my fire alarm was going off”. Pretend you’re already friends, and text them that way. (If that’s the sort of bond you want to have.) If they’re into it, they’ll respond in a similar way. If they’re not into it they might not respond and that’s not who you’re looking for! My rule of thumb is that I don’t force conversations at the beginning, because it’s not (that) hard to find someone who I can text naturally.
OH MY GOD of course an Ask Polly reader is also a DATING APP SCIENTIST! I love this, thank yooooooou! All of this is great advice. Glad your building didn't burn down, too!
Yes! F! Bumble. That was a lot of wasted time that resulted in exactly one date. And actually, that guy was a gem, but lives abroad. We still chat to this day.
Surprisingly, Tinder has been the best. I didn’t want it to be, so I tried alllllll the others to find a better alternative, but it is what it is. Bumble had the highest concentration of attractive people, but if they don’t reply to messages that doesn’t end up mattering. Slogging through hundreds of Tinder profiles has resulted in the highest number of dates. (And they’ve generally been good, or at least interesting, dates. I’ve gone out with doctors, lawyers, politicians, musicians, a professional clown, a porn star, an acrobat… currently trying to schedule a date with a magician this weekend, just because I think that’d be a funny addition to my eventual dating memoir)
Tinder! A. The men (cis woman here) actually engage and will meet in person. I started with Bumble and did LOTS of messaging with ZERO dates for the first few weeks. Also, on Tinder you can sus out their intentions better because you don't have to message first. Basically, Tinder ends up being all the things - hookup app, dating app, etc. It feels like you get what you put in. I spent too much time on OKCupid. You can answer all the questions, and go out on dates with high percentage matches. BUT only one guy on there read my profile before the date. That was the highest concentration of married guys (like 50%) and oddballs (as in I think he may have been a pedophile) I'd encountered.
Look, I am also close to 30 (27 3/4) and I have also been single for years, and I also used to dread going on the apps. Why? Because they take this storybook idea of how you're "supposed" to meet the person you love and turn it into a rote, robotic, algorithm-based nightmare. And all the things this person says are true: It *is* hard to figure out someone's vibe through an app, it *is* hard to go through page after page of the same photos and answers, it *does* feel endless and pointless and often soul-sucking. But it feels even worse when you do all that from the point of view that you're looking for the love of your life. It's too much pressure! It's too hopeless! So here's what I'll say, just from my own experiences:
Dating through apps is just an adventure of your own choosing. It is one of the best ways to explore a city, and humanity in general. Have the apps led me to the love of my life? Obviously not! But I've been to a dozen awesome restaurants and bars that I would never have heard of before. I've explored new neighborhoods, and heard about peoples' lives that are wildly different from my own. I've gone on a date with a self-obsessed art dealer and an incredibly sweet musician and a very passionate human rights lawyer and a very boring architect. I learned things, whether they were things I was interested in or not! People will recommend books or movies or hobbies or places to you, they will tell you good jokes or at least show you a point of view you've never seen before. And once in a while, one of them (usually the one you never expected) will magically light a spark in you, and for a few weeks you'll walk around feeling glowy and hot and excited and alive. And that person may not end up being the love of your life—they probably *won't* actually. But you'll get out of this space of feeling like no one will ever get you. You'll get out of this space of feeling like you're unlovable. You are!
When you log into the apps, you can't look for the profile that looks like *the love of your life.* Again, it's just too much pressure. None of us expect a profile to portray how good a person smells, or the gorgeous timbre of their laugh, or their perfectly snarky sense of humor that makes you cackle like a deranged witch. They're a badly drawn finger painting of a single star—they're not meant to illustrate the whole galaxy. Likewise, you need to look for small things that might indicate someone is cool. Does a guy have a mildly funny or snarky thing in his profile that you smiled at? Swipe right! Does he have a job you think is pretty cool? Swipe! Is he just fuckin hot? Swipe right! Who cares! Put something a little weird in your profile, and watch how many guys like it. Your fellow weirdos are out there, and they are looking for the smoke signal of a fellow weirdo!
And lastly, just take a deep breath and remember that you're in control here. Does opening an app feel like Hell? Then there is no need to open it! I have deleted and re-downloaded the apps so many times. I've binged and then burned out. And then one day I feel a little frisky, and I start over again. But only when I'm in a place where I feel ready for an adventure.
I am sending you so much love and empathy. It's a roller coaster. But once you realize that the flying and the falling are part of the ride and not the end of the world, roller coasters can be pretty fucking fun (:
Everything Stacey said times 100. After divorcing (married 15 years with 2 children) I found the world of dating had completely changed! So in my mid 40's I had to quickly adapt to "online dating". Think Tender (yikes I had no idea what that was in the beginning so I deleted it in short order!), Bumble, Match. I don't know if I am just an extremely lucky person, but the vast majority of guys I ended up meeting turned out to be pretty decent people. Yes there were a few dates here and there that went sideways, but I didn't take it personally and I kept prodding along thinking "I am just here to have fun & meet some interesting people". However, early on I learned a very critical thing. Actually SET UP A MEETING with the dude ( I never called it a date...ya know because of the flinchy men thing). Do not waste your time texting or talking with someone for more than about a week. If they are not responding quickly enough, they are not interested. If they are responding, a week should do it. It is just too much work (particularly if you are communicating with 3-4 guys at the same time). After some initial texting to make sure he's not a complete dick (you can usually detect this right away) and you think they "could" be interesting, make a move and ask them if they want to meet for a quick drink or coffee. You will know after that encounter if you would like to see them again. There is NO WAY you will know if you are truly interested and attracted to a person until you meet them. I have met up with seriously attractive guys that were complete douche bags in person. I have met up with average looking guys that I thought, well even if we don't hit it off, maybe we can be friends. I ended up in a 1.5 yr relationship with one of these...he was a great guy. If you are serious about meeting and finding someone, you will hate this part, but it will turn into a part time job. It is worth it. After a few years and 3 long relationships later (all met on dating apps) I met my person on Match. We have been together for over 2 years now and I can honestly say he is the love of my life. He says the same about me. I literally cringe at the thought of never meeting him and the chances of that happening would have been near ZERO if I had not used a dating app. Good luck to you! I know it feels like it will never happen, but give people a chance, put in the work, and SET UP MEETINGS ASAP!!
Yes to this 100% You don't know if you click with anyone until you meet them, so meet them! Thank you for the dose of hope, Christy, happy to hear it worked out for you (:
"There are entire communities of gay men who operate this way and they’re very happy together and honestly, these are some of the only good communities on the face of the planet as far as I’m concerned. The tragedy here is that you, like me, are a straight woman living in a boring sexist heterosexual world where people are avoidant and get flinchy over small things because they over-interpret your allergies as major character flaws. "
OMG THIS...I have often had similar feelings but could never have expressed it so well. Well done! I just started online dating and have had the exact same thoughts about it. It makes my skin crawl. I have zero problems connecting with people IRL but somehow online I just can't do it. I can't engage and also everyone seems so generic and boring. It's the old Groucho Marx - I don't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member...I say fuck online dating and just go out! Find places where people congregate and get flirty.
'Straight men are jumpy little bitches. There is nothing they like less than an intense woman who looks poised to overinvest in them. That’s just a fact to carry around in your hip pocket.' Polly: you are the best.
This is an interesting one. I'd like to present a different side. As a straight woman who has been on a LOT of dates from dating apps, I would recommend against them. I've had more bad experiences than good. I've dealt with a lot of really shitty men - from 'player' kind of shitty, to homophobic or racist kind of shitty, to sexual predator kind of bad. I'm a really kind and open person who gets on really well with most people, especially during initial texting conversations, so a few years ago I ended up taking the plunge and meeting a lot of people in real life. The problem was that it was impossible to tell whether someone was a genuine person, faking being a genuine person or outright dangerous. I always took all the normal precautions and met in public places, told people where I would be, etc. I am someone who is normally very good at picking up on social cues. On dating apps, especially as a female dating men, it's often not possible to tell if someone is a safe person. So I would personally recommend against meeting 'all the people'. These days, I would only meet someone on a dating app once I'd got to know them very well first. And definitely don't give out your phone number until you've met the person. I've had to change my number due to being stalked by someone I only talked to once for a few hours.
When I had a chat to her recently, my psychologist told me there are a lot of predators on these apps. She has very recently had quite a number of clients who have had traumatic experiences from meeting people who appeared completely normal, even well into the date. These experiences are not as rare as we all like to believe.
Not just for safety reasons, I've actually stopped using the apps because I find the sexism rampant and it severely affects my mental health. Using dating apps destroys my faith in men. I would rather hold out some hope. I've had a few relationships and friendships from dating apps, but none of them have been worth the awful bits. I find that the people I meet in real life (through hobbies, friends and such) are more genuine as well as more sustainable.
I can't do the apps because it takes so long to even tease out if they're an ok (safe) person worth meeting, but IRL I learn more within 20 seconds of meeting than I got from a week of messaging and profile study. And it sucks so much to just *know* 20 seconds after meeting them whether I even want to keep talking (and when it's 50/50 either way, that turns into lots of pointless coffees). So I skip the apps and have been trying every speed-dating-like event that I can find. My favorites are the ones that are little break-out groups that change with every question that make it easier to relax than the one-on-one classic speed dating format. After every event I've gone out with at least a couple people that I *want* to go out with. IRL stuff is soooo much better for my mental health than the apps. Just not having to do the soul-draining swiping and the creepy dms lets me relax and enjoy myself so much more.
I feel this one. I'm 29 and have had zero luck on the dating apps while almost all of my friends in marriages/relationships have met their partner on an app. I've gone of some dates, good ones and ok ones but nothing sticks. I get matches but rarely ever a response. The kind of messages and conversations I get from men on these apps have made it probably the most devaluing experience of my life. There must just be something about ~me~ that provokes men to ask me "what my kinks are" or if I'm "down to just get fucked" within only a couple of messages back and forth. I've tailored my profile to seem the least "slutty" possible while still seeming like a fun flirty girl (I've even had my guy friend's check!!!) so I'm confused as to why I can't get any basic human decency out of anyone. Don't get me wrong, I'm no prude and I'm down for a good time but geez....can we at least meet in person first? I'm not a fan of super casual sex but that doesn't make me a nun. I'm smart and successful. I make my own money and have great friends. I don't think I'm that bad to look at. I have my own fulfilling life but it's getting old being the 3rd or 5th wheel. I value my independence but I also want a partner. I don't mind going on lots of dates to get there but I can't even get to the date part! I'm a great date (I know this lol) but I just don't come across anybody worthy to date? I know that's not true so maybe it's just me....I love men and have had great relationships with them so I don't want this to keep crushing my spirit. I need a male springboard in my life!
BTW, Polly I love your column and have read your work for almost 10 years. I have a Google doc of chunks of your columns that I read whenever I need to be brought back down to earth. My mom even gave me one of your books without knowing I already followed your column.
It is SO gross and demoralizing to get those creepy 'DTF' messages from randos when you are looking for something more. But as Polly reminds us, those messages say way more about THEM than about you. We cannot take them so personally. I met my fiance on Tinder, after a few years of being on the apps. One of my biggest epiphanies as to why the apps made me feel so bad about myself was, well, the way they were designed. When you swipe right on someone who has also swiped right on you, the screen does that whole little 'hearts explosion' thing, and is like, "OoooOOOOooooh he LIKES you!!!!" which made me feel like I was a kid in middle school again, getting a note passed from my crush. And then I would spend some time composing a thoughtful, fun, flirty-but-not-too-flirty message, only to get unmatched. And it crushed me! I wondered what the hell I was doing wrong, to make whatever random guy "unlike" me. And then a guy friend told me that there are apps that people use to get around the 'daily swiping limit' on Tinder, that essentially let you bulk-swipe-right on dozens of profiles at a time. So the way a lot of people use it, is they swipe right on every single profile that comes up, and then they only look at the profiles of the people who have also swiped right on them, and that is when they are looking at your profile for the first time. After I learned about that, I realized that getting matched or getting unmatched said basically nothing about me as a person, and I started taking the whole thing wayyyy less seriously. I started swiping right on a LOT more profiles (stupid dad joke in his profile? swipe right! holding a cute kitten in a photo? swipe right! wearing a fun jacket? swipe right!), and starting unmatching more aggressively, too. Steel yourself to ignore all the little heart explosions and stop believing that those hearts are a sign that someone else thinks you are worthy/lovable. If the conversation is boring and I'm being witty, but his responses aren't making me smile? Unmatch! When you get a creepy message (and buh-LIEVE me, I got some truly Charles-Manson-esque ones), do not waste any time trying to figure what it is "about you" that made that guy say it to you; just unmatch and move on to the next one. At the app stage, no one else is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself; and honestly, they shouldn't be. If they *were*, they'd be thinking about an imaginary version of you that's filled with the qualities they've projected onto you, not the person you actually are. The apps are absolutely a numbers game, and I found that I had to be really emotionally disciplined to avoid feeling like the interactions I had on the app were an indication of my worth or lovability.
I read somewhere that Tinder was meant to virtually replicate the experience of going to a bar. Maybe you make eye contact with someone across the room. Maybe they come talk to you, maybe they don't. Maybe the conversation is fun, maybe it's boring. Maybe they ask for your number, maybe they don't; maybe you give them your real number, maybe you give them a fake one. Maybe you go home with them; maybe you never hear from them again. On the apps, there are fewer barriers to these types of interactions, so you end up having more of them - more dull or disappointing ones, definitely, but also more fun ones, too, I think.
I have a tendency to become emotionally invested too quickly, and some of the things I did to help protect me from myself were:
- turn off notifications on the app. I'd go into it when I felt like it.
- use the Settings feature on my phone to set a 'time limit' for how long I could spend on an app per day
- NEVER give out my number until I'd met the guy and decided I want to go out on a date with him
- Spent a lot less time thinking about what was on my profile. I would sometimes update it if I thought of something that really made me laugh, but I stopped trying to create a miniature word portrait of myself that would be attractive and intriguing to the widest audience possible. Remembering Polly's advice from an old column, I would display more of my anchovy-ness, but truly tried not to think about it very much. The more time I invested in crafting my profile, the more I felt rejected when I didn't get matches. (Also, to try to cut down on creepy messages, I turned off that thing where you let the app decide which photo of you to put first based on their algorithm. For my main photo, I chose something that displayed more of my 'personality' than my features - it was a selfie I snapped while I was wearing a VERY cute fox mask - and then I put my more 'feeling myself' photos at the back, so they'd at least have to swipe through to see what I looked like. I don't have the data to back it up, but it at least made me *feel* like I was screening out more of the dudes who were just looking for a one-night stand.)
You sound AWESOME. Finding love is a serious business, but random interactions with strangers shouldn't be. I am rooting for you so hard! Don't let some jumpy little bitch who probably just ate some bad clams crush your beautiful spirit!
Thank you for putting me in my place in the best way. My friends really get onto me about getting into a relationship or just dating more because they want me to be happy. I appreciate the sentiment but hounding me every week about who've I've chatted with or gone out with ISN'T HELPING. I work a lot and swiping feels like a second full time job at this point. It's hard not to take what people say on dating apps personally when it happens all the time. When it happens repeatedly I start to think maybe it really is ~me~, especially when I mention this to other friends who say they don't get the same type of messages. I find that hard to believe because they're women and this is our lot in life. And of course when I mention this to my guy friends they are BLOWN AWAY by their fellow man's behavior which I ALSO find hard to believe. Every guy I've ever been involved with I met in person and there was an instant chemistry and quite frankly, that's my drug. I chase that feeling. Dating apps don't give anyone that feeling (how could they? these people are essentially just photos) so I've got to stop expecting that. My therapist says that feeling chasing doesn't mean the relationship will work out as a long-term "love on my life" situation and I agree with her on that (clearly they didn't work out for me) but it's a hard habit to break when that instant chemistry feels like you've just done a fat line. I also tend to get emotionally invested easily. You'd know that reading my posts. I have a drive to impress people when they don't deserve my effort. I know I need to chill with the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE HOW GREAT I AM!?!" energy. It's a struggle. I can't wait to be 30 lol.
Ugh, instant chemistry is SUCH a rush! For me, like half of my past relationships were from in-person meeting, and half were from apps. The instant-chemistry thing only happened for a few of those, and from my own personal experience, that ended up being a sure sign that the dude was going to end up destroying me emotionally, lol.
I am also skeptical about your friends who say they don't get those types of messages. My best guess - either they are so emotionally inured to these messages that they unmatch/block right away and then forget all about them (this is me, a little bit... I'm always like, "Oh, it's not that bad" because I found my happily ever after, and I kind of have to go back into my mind palace to remember the scary and shitty experiences I had), OR... you have bigger boobs than they do. It's AMAZING the things men assume about women who are "drawn bad" (in the Jessica Rabbit sense, haha). I'm not too surprised about your guy friends... I would hope that the type of men who know how to be friends with women and treat them like people don't send those kinds of messages.
Swiping absolutely felt like my part-time job at the time. Is there a way for you to emotionally/mentally reframe going onto Tinder/etc to be more like going onto Instagram? Pop on, do a little scrolling, double click some photos, maybe think up a funny caption for a photo, then put down your phone and go about your life. I guess it depends on your relationship with Instagram... I know that a lot of people get really emotionally invested in how many likes/followers/comments they have. Personally, I'm not super photogenic and I'm not interested in becoming a better photographer, so I don't get invested in my presence there. I just think of it as something fun/entertaining for me to do - Instagram shows me hundreds of little windows onto the world, and some of them are really cool and some of them are really 'meh'. It's all there for YOUR pleasure. It becomes WAY more like work if you are scrolling through every profile you encounter, examining his pictures and his responses and constantly measuring, "Could this guy be the next big love of my life?!?!" That way lies burnout. That would be like trying to decide whether you would ever want to move to Paris before you double-tap on someone's pretty snap of the Eiffel Tower. Just swipe right more indiscriminately, and don't bother investing your time in being more discriminating until you get a message that is more than just, "hey gurl whats up with ur booty 2nite". Don't even read a guy's profile until you get a direct message that indicates to you that he has something interesting to say. Maybe try it as an experiment for the next month? Spend fifteen minutes a day swiping right on every profile that pops up (maybe even if their photo is completely unattractive or basic?), spend ten minutes wading through your DMs, send no first messages, don't look at their profile until they've sent you what you consider to be an intriguing (or at LEAST respectful and appropriate) message, unmatch everyone who doesn't meet the bar of intriguing and block the ones who aren't respectful, spend five minutes looking at the profiles of the ones who meet the bar and replying to those messages. Half an hour, boom! Repeat the next day. My policy was to suggest grabbing coffee once a guy had made me laugh... I like the other commentor's data-driven suggestion of 30 messages. After that number, you should either get coffee or unmatch his boring ass. (And beware of the guys who are only on there for the dopamine rush of low-stakes, asynchronous flirting with a pretty girl. There are dudes who are content to chat your ear off forever and never meet in person. Fine if that's what you're looking for, but you want love, not a pen pal, and you're not gonna waste your precious 5 minutes on that guy.) You can always change things up next month, but this is fairly close to what I did as a methodology to "reset" my emotional relationship to dating apps (I was not at all disciplined about the timeboxing, though, haha), and I eventually did re-integrate the practice of sending a first message to matches that I thought were REALLY cute. Mostly didn't work out though, and one time I got a little cat-fished. (Pro-tip: if you're chatting with a reeeeally good-looking guy who never has time to meet up, use Google to reverse-search his photos to find out if they belong to a gay model in Brazil! lol)
I always think back to that one Polly column that was like, "When you go back and think about your exes and try to figure out what you did "wrong" you are worshipping at the altar of the most tedious religion in the world, that is based on your deeply-seated belief that there most certainly IS something wrong with you, and only these guys were perceptive enough to see it." WOW. That is me up one side and down the other, and I've got to be vigilant about noticing when I'm letting that belief color my interactions with others. How COULD those guys know anything about you, when they are "essentially just photos"? You got that EXACTLY right. They are just photos on the internet to you, and you are just a photo on the internet to them. You're not real people to each other, so how could they know anything about what's supposedly 'wrong' about you, any more than they could know what is definitely amazing about you? Just enjoy the photos for now, and don't waste your energy deciding whether you really want to learn French just yet.
Polly, I want to preface this with lots of love for your work. You are obviously immensely talented and your work has literally gotten me through hard times. I really connect with it. However, sometimes your life advice seems like a moving target. In the past I read a response from you for a letter titled "I hate dating apps so much". You said, "The bottom line is, if you hate dating apps, you’re unlikely to find love through a dating app."
And as someone who also hates dating apps, I took solace in that response. Why is the tone of this one so different?
I get that opinions can change over time, but I think your faithful readers are taking a lot of what you say to heart, so it's confusing and disconcerting (for me at least).
Sorry for this comment in advance. I promise I've also left lots and lots of positive feedback for you too.
I don't think there's any way for me to avoid contradicting myself! I've been writing this column weekly for 9 years. That said, I don't think "Don't use dating apps if you hate them" contradicts "Try to have fun with it and turn it into a creative project." It goes without saying that she should quit them if they continue to make her miserable even after she experiments with writing about them. My main feeling here is that the LW is obviously a great writer who's hates a lot of stuff with a red hot passion. The value of dating apps themselves feels secondary to the larger issue that she's consumed by her loneliness and needs something more generative and soothing to focus on. What I read in this letter is a lot of anxiety and emotional fuel that needs a new target that's more sustainable and energizing.
You're welcome. Here's the thing: No one should feel like they're fucking up by NOT using dating apps! I mean, my god. It's not a natural process. If that's something people tell you when you don't use them - fuck that noise. You have to trust yourself and do what's right for you. My hunch is that I'd hate them, too, which I think I've made clear over and over again. But when someone is conflicted and a little obsessed with a topic, that makes you want them to look more closely at WHY. Not because they're fucked up - someone else implied that I was suggesting that the LW was messed up. She seems absolutely smart and sane and delightful to me. When I urge someone to dig for their reasons / preferences/ complicated feelings around something, I'm just pushing them to look at what's there. I mean, as I said at the end, most of us are unaware of what's working on us. The more you know about what's tossing you around and making you feel unsteady, the more you'll understand your reactions to life and people and challenges moving forward. I mean that's basic stuff, but it's incredible how common it is NOT to dig into the difficult things to find out what's going on. Anyway, now I have to thank YOU for listening! Good talk, hugs, see you at next week's campfire chat!
I love this advice. I did what Polly suggested. Turned the whole dating thing into a memoir and podcast. The art that resulted was WAY more fun than the dates, FYI.
I'm an introvert who LOVES comfy pants. (I'm on my couch in them right now). That said, I did the whole app thing for a year. Bumble, no! Tinder, fun! OkCupid, odd!
In order to date on the apps, I had to dial down my expectations VERY far. It became a kind of social experiment. I made a pact with myself in 2019 to go on fifty dates - made it to fifty-one.
Three relationships came from it. None successful, but it ended up being more about self-exploration than finding 'the one.'
I'm WAAAAY older than you LW, and I still hold out hope. That said I've been off the apps since January 2020 (met a guy - didn't work out and pandemic). I plan to spend the summer clearing out whatever (emotional) cobwebs I need to then I'll try them again come fall.
But the advice from Polly and the commenters is SO true. I think these flinchy and equivocal guys would text forever. REFUSE! Set up a time to meet. Meet them. Determine if you'd ever want to spend more than an hour with them. Rinse and repeat.
Most of the guys I met are nice enough. Some sweet, but not my type. Some really creepy souls, but they were nothing if not interesting. A few married guys...because some guys do not stop dating after saying, 'I Do.'
Maybe it's my age, but I think you have to be good with the emotional unavailability of most of them. But that's okay. I too got to hang out in places I'd never go. Meet people I never would. Hear stories from people I'd never come across in my own social circle of long-marrieds in L.A.
Vulnerability is key. That's the hard part. You'll never see most of these people again, though, so vulnerable is OK!
Pro tip. The apps can be geographical. Maybe don't date too close to your front door.
I am reading through the comments and unsure if someone has already said something along these lines, but my impression upon reading the letter is that the LW is not going on enough in-person dates. I agree with Polly's advice whole-heartedly, but wanted to add: try faster to meet the guys in-person. If they don't want to, that tells you something! As someone who hated the inauthenticity of the apps but then kept trying for YEARS despite finding no serious relationships, I am now partnered to a Bumble guy. My sister (a confirmed introvert) found her BF on Bumble too. And my mom's is from Match. So I agree that one solution is to quit them, but in some ways they are the only way to meet people in this effed-up world.
I guess I'm trying to establish my authority to give advice when I really don't have much :), but just to say I feel like online profiles/chatting just never gave me much of an idea of what someone was really like, let alone our chemistry. So if you can look at that part as the stuff Polly says you have to do just to play the game, and get ASAP to point B (I like some of the comments below on how to handle the chat, too, like jumping in as if you're already friends, much more interesting, no chatting forever and ever) where you can meet and see if you vibe with the person at all. I went on a million first dates, and like <30 second dates over the years. Yes, it's exhausting. I would psych myself up by saying, I'm going out for a drink! With someone I'll have lots to talk to about, since I've never met them!
I have so been where you are, and I know how much it sucks. I'm an old, so my pre-app nemeses were Match.com and their various ilk. I found that even on the rare occasions when I managed to find someone who seemed interesting and non-sheep-like, it was still tough to get the time investment right. I'd waste tons of time laying groundwork (texting probably would have made this much easier) to meet someone I almost always knew was a hard "nope" two seconds after arrival. Or, on one memorable date, when we had spent *way* too much time talking before we met in person, I wound up in bed with a guy who was creepily both a total fucking stranger and someone I (erroneously) felt like I knew intimately (through a ridiculously extended email exchange... and a couple of 2-hour phone calls -- a thing I am now both nostalgic for and horrified to recall existed). I was so freaked out afterward, I wound up deleting my profile and swearing off the platform forever.
All this to say that the thing I recommend most highly (assuming it still exists) -- and I know this will sound nuts to a fellow introvert, but bear with me -- speed dating. I know, *I know*, but seriously: You meet 30 guys in 90 minutes. It's insanely efficient, and if you go in with the right mindset, it can be borderline-to-actually fun. Or, fine, at least kind of entertaining. The idea of approaching it as a science experiment is exactly right. Detach yourself from worrying about how you're coming off and look at it as you interviewing someone for the short-term job of amusing you for a couple months.
Come up with 3-5 non-mundane questions -- manic genius and/or profound insight isn't necessary, just avoid the stultifying standards (almost all the dudes I talked to froze up and threw out desperate zzz-inducers about work, free time, family, blah blah blah). I think I asked about best vacation, most embarrassing school memory, favorite thing to doodle -- probably all the shitty, idiotic prompts you hate on the apps -- but when they have to answer them in person on the spot, it's much more useful. What they say usually doesn't matter as much as whether they seem to get you or smile at your questions or stare at you in horror like you're a whackjob. And if they do the last one, just imagine the scientist in your head nodding while taking notes and muttering, "interesting... #17 gives every indication of being a major crapweasel...NEXT!"
As others have said, certainly better than I'm managing, try to make it fun and interesting for you while looking at the dude across from you as a potentially fascinating (but ultimately eminently replaceable) forest-dwelling creature of a species you happen to be studying for the good of humanity. There's a ton of good advice here, and Polly is right on -- it's fantastic to share your life with a fellow weirdo, but you have to be in a place where you love your weird enough to be able to pull it out and show it off a little before the right weirdo will recognize you and follow you home panting. You'll get there eventually, I promise. We're all rooting for you and sending you deliciously-fruity-yet-bracing virtual cocktails of solidarity.
I clicked this link SO FAST because I feel like I could have written this letter a couple of years ago. I was very eager to read the response, but now I'm just... confused.
Why is so much of the advice related to the LW changing her attitude that she's fucked up/unworthy? She says that she feels alienated by her circumstances, not that she doesn't like who she is as a person. Why is the assumption that she's faulting herself for not being like the average dating app user?
And how can someone simply decide that something soul crushing is not soul crushing? 99% of the advice given by most people is some variation of "change your outlook." Which makes sense, in a way, because it's the only thing that's really in the LW's control here. But, practically speaking, I'm not sure how anyone really follows that advice. How does anyone choose enjoy a romance with the moon? I don't think I even know what that means. And, maybe more to the point, how can a moon romance be genuinely satisfying when someone wants a real connection?
I see "It’s not as lonely as you think." and I think... yes it is. What am I missing?
I don't think the LR is fucked up at all. On the contrary I think most everyone on these apps feel the same way. I know I did! But in order to have a real connection (and not be lonely), one must get out and actually meet the people they encounter on the apps. My bet is 99% of folks on these apps feel the same way and a lot of them are just trying to find someone, anyone they can connect with. But this will not happen while staring at someone on a screen or reading their cringy forced profiles that put everyone into the same box. I have met many interesting and extremely intelligent artsy sensitive men through dating apps, but you never would have known this based on their profile! It's so hard to put yourself out there, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. It is work, but it is worth it in the long run.
"It's awful, but you have to slog through it" is decent enough advice, and that's what Polly touched on first.
I get "you have to keep doing this even though it's alienating." What I don't get is the advice that it doesn't have to be alienating. The "delight in the stupidity" and "embrace your conflicted soul" and all that. I don't understand how, practically speaking, anyone actually applies that to their own life.
Oops posted before I was done, but I love the idea of exploring what you hate about the apps! Don't give up on them yet, we can try to take the broken parts of our society and make them work for us. Wishing you best of luck!!
As someone who has embraced being “exactly the right kind of fucked up to do this” let me tell you: I’ve treated dating apps as an experiment for the past…6, 7, maybe 8 years. To the point of literally having spreadsheets of every date, downloading & analyzing the data from every conversation, testing opening lines, making infographics about which app has the best swipe-to-date conversion, etc. I don’t disagree with any of the advice in this response but I can provide some real-world numbers to set your standards to, because (at least for me) it makes the apps better when you have some sort of basis for these things…
First, fuck Bumble. I know, I know… it seems like the most feminist of the apps, but the men who use it only switch over to it after they’re tired of women not responding to their messages and therefore they decide not to reply. Bumble has the lowest match-to-conversation rate of any app I’ve tried.
Second, expect to swipe left on 90% of people and maybe half of the 10% of the people you swipe right on will also swipe right with you. So for every 100, you’ll match with 5. Imagine going into a bar packed with people. How many will you want to go on a date with? That’s just statistics.
Third - and this is the most important - I’ve downloaded years’ worth of conversations and the biggest thing I learned is that **30 messages** (combined) is the ideal number before going on/asking for a date. Fewer than that, you don’t really know if you vibe. More than that, one of you is probably not actually interested in meeting up.
(I have more tips, but the fire alarm just started going off in my apartment building so I guess I should evacuate 🙄)
Alright, I’m back and my building didn’t burn down! Which is a nice segue to my next tip — if you want to have conversations that don’t feel superficial (because, dang, most of them don’t go anywhere) share a random personal detail from your day and see where it goes. No more “hi, how are you? I’m doing well”. Jump straight into “I just spent an hour outside while my fire alarm was going off”. Pretend you’re already friends, and text them that way. (If that’s the sort of bond you want to have.) If they’re into it, they’ll respond in a similar way. If they’re not into it they might not respond and that’s not who you’re looking for! My rule of thumb is that I don’t force conversations at the beginning, because it’s not (that) hard to find someone who I can text naturally.
OH MY GOD of course an Ask Polly reader is also a DATING APP SCIENTIST! I love this, thank yooooooou! All of this is great advice. Glad your building didn't burn down, too!
Stacey you are my spirit animal
Yes! F! Bumble. That was a lot of wasted time that resulted in exactly one date. And actually, that guy was a gem, but lives abroad. We still chat to this day.
Omg I only use Bumble at the time! Which one has turned out best for you?
Surprisingly, Tinder has been the best. I didn’t want it to be, so I tried alllllll the others to find a better alternative, but it is what it is. Bumble had the highest concentration of attractive people, but if they don’t reply to messages that doesn’t end up mattering. Slogging through hundreds of Tinder profiles has resulted in the highest number of dates. (And they’ve generally been good, or at least interesting, dates. I’ve gone out with doctors, lawyers, politicians, musicians, a professional clown, a porn star, an acrobat… currently trying to schedule a date with a magician this weekend, just because I think that’d be a funny addition to my eventual dating memoir)
Oooh Thank you so much for your reply! All your dates sound like so much fun!
I’ve tried tinder before, but weirdly I’ve had better luck with bumble. I’m in Chile though... could it be it varies in different countries?
Tinder! A. The men (cis woman here) actually engage and will meet in person. I started with Bumble and did LOTS of messaging with ZERO dates for the first few weeks. Also, on Tinder you can sus out their intentions better because you don't have to message first. Basically, Tinder ends up being all the things - hookup app, dating app, etc. It feels like you get what you put in. I spent too much time on OKCupid. You can answer all the questions, and go out on dates with high percentage matches. BUT only one guy on there read my profile before the date. That was the highest concentration of married guys (like 50%) and oddballs (as in I think he may have been a pedophile) I'd encountered.
Look, I am also close to 30 (27 3/4) and I have also been single for years, and I also used to dread going on the apps. Why? Because they take this storybook idea of how you're "supposed" to meet the person you love and turn it into a rote, robotic, algorithm-based nightmare. And all the things this person says are true: It *is* hard to figure out someone's vibe through an app, it *is* hard to go through page after page of the same photos and answers, it *does* feel endless and pointless and often soul-sucking. But it feels even worse when you do all that from the point of view that you're looking for the love of your life. It's too much pressure! It's too hopeless! So here's what I'll say, just from my own experiences:
Dating through apps is just an adventure of your own choosing. It is one of the best ways to explore a city, and humanity in general. Have the apps led me to the love of my life? Obviously not! But I've been to a dozen awesome restaurants and bars that I would never have heard of before. I've explored new neighborhoods, and heard about peoples' lives that are wildly different from my own. I've gone on a date with a self-obsessed art dealer and an incredibly sweet musician and a very passionate human rights lawyer and a very boring architect. I learned things, whether they were things I was interested in or not! People will recommend books or movies or hobbies or places to you, they will tell you good jokes or at least show you a point of view you've never seen before. And once in a while, one of them (usually the one you never expected) will magically light a spark in you, and for a few weeks you'll walk around feeling glowy and hot and excited and alive. And that person may not end up being the love of your life—they probably *won't* actually. But you'll get out of this space of feeling like no one will ever get you. You'll get out of this space of feeling like you're unlovable. You are!
When you log into the apps, you can't look for the profile that looks like *the love of your life.* Again, it's just too much pressure. None of us expect a profile to portray how good a person smells, or the gorgeous timbre of their laugh, or their perfectly snarky sense of humor that makes you cackle like a deranged witch. They're a badly drawn finger painting of a single star—they're not meant to illustrate the whole galaxy. Likewise, you need to look for small things that might indicate someone is cool. Does a guy have a mildly funny or snarky thing in his profile that you smiled at? Swipe right! Does he have a job you think is pretty cool? Swipe! Is he just fuckin hot? Swipe right! Who cares! Put something a little weird in your profile, and watch how many guys like it. Your fellow weirdos are out there, and they are looking for the smoke signal of a fellow weirdo!
And lastly, just take a deep breath and remember that you're in control here. Does opening an app feel like Hell? Then there is no need to open it! I have deleted and re-downloaded the apps so many times. I've binged and then burned out. And then one day I feel a little frisky, and I start over again. But only when I'm in a place where I feel ready for an adventure.
I am sending you so much love and empathy. It's a roller coaster. But once you realize that the flying and the falling are part of the ride and not the end of the world, roller coasters can be pretty fucking fun (:
Everything Stacey said times 100. After divorcing (married 15 years with 2 children) I found the world of dating had completely changed! So in my mid 40's I had to quickly adapt to "online dating". Think Tender (yikes I had no idea what that was in the beginning so I deleted it in short order!), Bumble, Match. I don't know if I am just an extremely lucky person, but the vast majority of guys I ended up meeting turned out to be pretty decent people. Yes there were a few dates here and there that went sideways, but I didn't take it personally and I kept prodding along thinking "I am just here to have fun & meet some interesting people". However, early on I learned a very critical thing. Actually SET UP A MEETING with the dude ( I never called it a date...ya know because of the flinchy men thing). Do not waste your time texting or talking with someone for more than about a week. If they are not responding quickly enough, they are not interested. If they are responding, a week should do it. It is just too much work (particularly if you are communicating with 3-4 guys at the same time). After some initial texting to make sure he's not a complete dick (you can usually detect this right away) and you think they "could" be interesting, make a move and ask them if they want to meet for a quick drink or coffee. You will know after that encounter if you would like to see them again. There is NO WAY you will know if you are truly interested and attracted to a person until you meet them. I have met up with seriously attractive guys that were complete douche bags in person. I have met up with average looking guys that I thought, well even if we don't hit it off, maybe we can be friends. I ended up in a 1.5 yr relationship with one of these...he was a great guy. If you are serious about meeting and finding someone, you will hate this part, but it will turn into a part time job. It is worth it. After a few years and 3 long relationships later (all met on dating apps) I met my person on Match. We have been together for over 2 years now and I can honestly say he is the love of my life. He says the same about me. I literally cringe at the thought of never meeting him and the chances of that happening would have been near ZERO if I had not used a dating app. Good luck to you! I know it feels like it will never happen, but give people a chance, put in the work, and SET UP MEETINGS ASAP!!
Yes to this 100% You don't know if you click with anyone until you meet them, so meet them! Thank you for the dose of hope, Christy, happy to hear it worked out for you (:
"There are entire communities of gay men who operate this way and they’re very happy together and honestly, these are some of the only good communities on the face of the planet as far as I’m concerned. The tragedy here is that you, like me, are a straight woman living in a boring sexist heterosexual world where people are avoidant and get flinchy over small things because they over-interpret your allergies as major character flaws. "
OMG THIS...I have often had similar feelings but could never have expressed it so well. Well done! I just started online dating and have had the exact same thoughts about it. It makes my skin crawl. I have zero problems connecting with people IRL but somehow online I just can't do it. I can't engage and also everyone seems so generic and boring. It's the old Groucho Marx - I don't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member...I say fuck online dating and just go out! Find places where people congregate and get flirty.
'Straight men are jumpy little bitches. There is nothing they like less than an intense woman who looks poised to overinvest in them. That’s just a fact to carry around in your hip pocket.' Polly: you are the best.
This is an interesting one. I'd like to present a different side. As a straight woman who has been on a LOT of dates from dating apps, I would recommend against them. I've had more bad experiences than good. I've dealt with a lot of really shitty men - from 'player' kind of shitty, to homophobic or racist kind of shitty, to sexual predator kind of bad. I'm a really kind and open person who gets on really well with most people, especially during initial texting conversations, so a few years ago I ended up taking the plunge and meeting a lot of people in real life. The problem was that it was impossible to tell whether someone was a genuine person, faking being a genuine person or outright dangerous. I always took all the normal precautions and met in public places, told people where I would be, etc. I am someone who is normally very good at picking up on social cues. On dating apps, especially as a female dating men, it's often not possible to tell if someone is a safe person. So I would personally recommend against meeting 'all the people'. These days, I would only meet someone on a dating app once I'd got to know them very well first. And definitely don't give out your phone number until you've met the person. I've had to change my number due to being stalked by someone I only talked to once for a few hours.
When I had a chat to her recently, my psychologist told me there are a lot of predators on these apps. She has very recently had quite a number of clients who have had traumatic experiences from meeting people who appeared completely normal, even well into the date. These experiences are not as rare as we all like to believe.
Not just for safety reasons, I've actually stopped using the apps because I find the sexism rampant and it severely affects my mental health. Using dating apps destroys my faith in men. I would rather hold out some hope. I've had a few relationships and friendships from dating apps, but none of them have been worth the awful bits. I find that the people I meet in real life (through hobbies, friends and such) are more genuine as well as more sustainable.
Thanks for this post, so helpful! I have a friend who feels the same way. I appreciate your taking the time to write this.
Amazing as always, Heather! It's incredible how you manage to see the very soul of every single writer after reading only a few paragraphs from them.
LW, I'd also encourage you to read: https://askpolly.substack.com/p/my-cheating-boyfriend-kept-cheating
The themes about being vulnerable and hopeful here really have helped me and resonate with me. Good luck!!
I can't do the apps because it takes so long to even tease out if they're an ok (safe) person worth meeting, but IRL I learn more within 20 seconds of meeting than I got from a week of messaging and profile study. And it sucks so much to just *know* 20 seconds after meeting them whether I even want to keep talking (and when it's 50/50 either way, that turns into lots of pointless coffees). So I skip the apps and have been trying every speed-dating-like event that I can find. My favorites are the ones that are little break-out groups that change with every question that make it easier to relax than the one-on-one classic speed dating format. After every event I've gone out with at least a couple people that I *want* to go out with. IRL stuff is soooo much better for my mental health than the apps. Just not having to do the soul-draining swiping and the creepy dms lets me relax and enjoy myself so much more.
I feel this one. I'm 29 and have had zero luck on the dating apps while almost all of my friends in marriages/relationships have met their partner on an app. I've gone of some dates, good ones and ok ones but nothing sticks. I get matches but rarely ever a response. The kind of messages and conversations I get from men on these apps have made it probably the most devaluing experience of my life. There must just be something about ~me~ that provokes men to ask me "what my kinks are" or if I'm "down to just get fucked" within only a couple of messages back and forth. I've tailored my profile to seem the least "slutty" possible while still seeming like a fun flirty girl (I've even had my guy friend's check!!!) so I'm confused as to why I can't get any basic human decency out of anyone. Don't get me wrong, I'm no prude and I'm down for a good time but geez....can we at least meet in person first? I'm not a fan of super casual sex but that doesn't make me a nun. I'm smart and successful. I make my own money and have great friends. I don't think I'm that bad to look at. I have my own fulfilling life but it's getting old being the 3rd or 5th wheel. I value my independence but I also want a partner. I don't mind going on lots of dates to get there but I can't even get to the date part! I'm a great date (I know this lol) but I just don't come across anybody worthy to date? I know that's not true so maybe it's just me....I love men and have had great relationships with them so I don't want this to keep crushing my spirit. I need a male springboard in my life!
BTW, Polly I love your column and have read your work for almost 10 years. I have a Google doc of chunks of your columns that I read whenever I need to be brought back down to earth. My mom even gave me one of your books without knowing I already followed your column.
It is SO gross and demoralizing to get those creepy 'DTF' messages from randos when you are looking for something more. But as Polly reminds us, those messages say way more about THEM than about you. We cannot take them so personally. I met my fiance on Tinder, after a few years of being on the apps. One of my biggest epiphanies as to why the apps made me feel so bad about myself was, well, the way they were designed. When you swipe right on someone who has also swiped right on you, the screen does that whole little 'hearts explosion' thing, and is like, "OoooOOOOooooh he LIKES you!!!!" which made me feel like I was a kid in middle school again, getting a note passed from my crush. And then I would spend some time composing a thoughtful, fun, flirty-but-not-too-flirty message, only to get unmatched. And it crushed me! I wondered what the hell I was doing wrong, to make whatever random guy "unlike" me. And then a guy friend told me that there are apps that people use to get around the 'daily swiping limit' on Tinder, that essentially let you bulk-swipe-right on dozens of profiles at a time. So the way a lot of people use it, is they swipe right on every single profile that comes up, and then they only look at the profiles of the people who have also swiped right on them, and that is when they are looking at your profile for the first time. After I learned about that, I realized that getting matched or getting unmatched said basically nothing about me as a person, and I started taking the whole thing wayyyy less seriously. I started swiping right on a LOT more profiles (stupid dad joke in his profile? swipe right! holding a cute kitten in a photo? swipe right! wearing a fun jacket? swipe right!), and starting unmatching more aggressively, too. Steel yourself to ignore all the little heart explosions and stop believing that those hearts are a sign that someone else thinks you are worthy/lovable. If the conversation is boring and I'm being witty, but his responses aren't making me smile? Unmatch! When you get a creepy message (and buh-LIEVE me, I got some truly Charles-Manson-esque ones), do not waste any time trying to figure what it is "about you" that made that guy say it to you; just unmatch and move on to the next one. At the app stage, no one else is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself; and honestly, they shouldn't be. If they *were*, they'd be thinking about an imaginary version of you that's filled with the qualities they've projected onto you, not the person you actually are. The apps are absolutely a numbers game, and I found that I had to be really emotionally disciplined to avoid feeling like the interactions I had on the app were an indication of my worth or lovability.
I read somewhere that Tinder was meant to virtually replicate the experience of going to a bar. Maybe you make eye contact with someone across the room. Maybe they come talk to you, maybe they don't. Maybe the conversation is fun, maybe it's boring. Maybe they ask for your number, maybe they don't; maybe you give them your real number, maybe you give them a fake one. Maybe you go home with them; maybe you never hear from them again. On the apps, there are fewer barriers to these types of interactions, so you end up having more of them - more dull or disappointing ones, definitely, but also more fun ones, too, I think.
I have a tendency to become emotionally invested too quickly, and some of the things I did to help protect me from myself were:
- turn off notifications on the app. I'd go into it when I felt like it.
- use the Settings feature on my phone to set a 'time limit' for how long I could spend on an app per day
- NEVER give out my number until I'd met the guy and decided I want to go out on a date with him
- Spent a lot less time thinking about what was on my profile. I would sometimes update it if I thought of something that really made me laugh, but I stopped trying to create a miniature word portrait of myself that would be attractive and intriguing to the widest audience possible. Remembering Polly's advice from an old column, I would display more of my anchovy-ness, but truly tried not to think about it very much. The more time I invested in crafting my profile, the more I felt rejected when I didn't get matches. (Also, to try to cut down on creepy messages, I turned off that thing where you let the app decide which photo of you to put first based on their algorithm. For my main photo, I chose something that displayed more of my 'personality' than my features - it was a selfie I snapped while I was wearing a VERY cute fox mask - and then I put my more 'feeling myself' photos at the back, so they'd at least have to swipe through to see what I looked like. I don't have the data to back it up, but it at least made me *feel* like I was screening out more of the dudes who were just looking for a one-night stand.)
You sound AWESOME. Finding love is a serious business, but random interactions with strangers shouldn't be. I am rooting for you so hard! Don't let some jumpy little bitch who probably just ate some bad clams crush your beautiful spirit!
Thank you for putting me in my place in the best way. My friends really get onto me about getting into a relationship or just dating more because they want me to be happy. I appreciate the sentiment but hounding me every week about who've I've chatted with or gone out with ISN'T HELPING. I work a lot and swiping feels like a second full time job at this point. It's hard not to take what people say on dating apps personally when it happens all the time. When it happens repeatedly I start to think maybe it really is ~me~, especially when I mention this to other friends who say they don't get the same type of messages. I find that hard to believe because they're women and this is our lot in life. And of course when I mention this to my guy friends they are BLOWN AWAY by their fellow man's behavior which I ALSO find hard to believe. Every guy I've ever been involved with I met in person and there was an instant chemistry and quite frankly, that's my drug. I chase that feeling. Dating apps don't give anyone that feeling (how could they? these people are essentially just photos) so I've got to stop expecting that. My therapist says that feeling chasing doesn't mean the relationship will work out as a long-term "love on my life" situation and I agree with her on that (clearly they didn't work out for me) but it's a hard habit to break when that instant chemistry feels like you've just done a fat line. I also tend to get emotionally invested easily. You'd know that reading my posts. I have a drive to impress people when they don't deserve my effort. I know I need to chill with the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE HOW GREAT I AM!?!" energy. It's a struggle. I can't wait to be 30 lol.
Ugh, instant chemistry is SUCH a rush! For me, like half of my past relationships were from in-person meeting, and half were from apps. The instant-chemistry thing only happened for a few of those, and from my own personal experience, that ended up being a sure sign that the dude was going to end up destroying me emotionally, lol.
I am also skeptical about your friends who say they don't get those types of messages. My best guess - either they are so emotionally inured to these messages that they unmatch/block right away and then forget all about them (this is me, a little bit... I'm always like, "Oh, it's not that bad" because I found my happily ever after, and I kind of have to go back into my mind palace to remember the scary and shitty experiences I had), OR... you have bigger boobs than they do. It's AMAZING the things men assume about women who are "drawn bad" (in the Jessica Rabbit sense, haha). I'm not too surprised about your guy friends... I would hope that the type of men who know how to be friends with women and treat them like people don't send those kinds of messages.
Swiping absolutely felt like my part-time job at the time. Is there a way for you to emotionally/mentally reframe going onto Tinder/etc to be more like going onto Instagram? Pop on, do a little scrolling, double click some photos, maybe think up a funny caption for a photo, then put down your phone and go about your life. I guess it depends on your relationship with Instagram... I know that a lot of people get really emotionally invested in how many likes/followers/comments they have. Personally, I'm not super photogenic and I'm not interested in becoming a better photographer, so I don't get invested in my presence there. I just think of it as something fun/entertaining for me to do - Instagram shows me hundreds of little windows onto the world, and some of them are really cool and some of them are really 'meh'. It's all there for YOUR pleasure. It becomes WAY more like work if you are scrolling through every profile you encounter, examining his pictures and his responses and constantly measuring, "Could this guy be the next big love of my life?!?!" That way lies burnout. That would be like trying to decide whether you would ever want to move to Paris before you double-tap on someone's pretty snap of the Eiffel Tower. Just swipe right more indiscriminately, and don't bother investing your time in being more discriminating until you get a message that is more than just, "hey gurl whats up with ur booty 2nite". Don't even read a guy's profile until you get a direct message that indicates to you that he has something interesting to say. Maybe try it as an experiment for the next month? Spend fifteen minutes a day swiping right on every profile that pops up (maybe even if their photo is completely unattractive or basic?), spend ten minutes wading through your DMs, send no first messages, don't look at their profile until they've sent you what you consider to be an intriguing (or at LEAST respectful and appropriate) message, unmatch everyone who doesn't meet the bar of intriguing and block the ones who aren't respectful, spend five minutes looking at the profiles of the ones who meet the bar and replying to those messages. Half an hour, boom! Repeat the next day. My policy was to suggest grabbing coffee once a guy had made me laugh... I like the other commentor's data-driven suggestion of 30 messages. After that number, you should either get coffee or unmatch his boring ass. (And beware of the guys who are only on there for the dopamine rush of low-stakes, asynchronous flirting with a pretty girl. There are dudes who are content to chat your ear off forever and never meet in person. Fine if that's what you're looking for, but you want love, not a pen pal, and you're not gonna waste your precious 5 minutes on that guy.) You can always change things up next month, but this is fairly close to what I did as a methodology to "reset" my emotional relationship to dating apps (I was not at all disciplined about the timeboxing, though, haha), and I eventually did re-integrate the practice of sending a first message to matches that I thought were REALLY cute. Mostly didn't work out though, and one time I got a little cat-fished. (Pro-tip: if you're chatting with a reeeeally good-looking guy who never has time to meet up, use Google to reverse-search his photos to find out if they belong to a gay model in Brazil! lol)
I always think back to that one Polly column that was like, "When you go back and think about your exes and try to figure out what you did "wrong" you are worshipping at the altar of the most tedious religion in the world, that is based on your deeply-seated belief that there most certainly IS something wrong with you, and only these guys were perceptive enough to see it." WOW. That is me up one side and down the other, and I've got to be vigilant about noticing when I'm letting that belief color my interactions with others. How COULD those guys know anything about you, when they are "essentially just photos"? You got that EXACTLY right. They are just photos on the internet to you, and you are just a photo on the internet to them. You're not real people to each other, so how could they know anything about what's supposedly 'wrong' about you, any more than they could know what is definitely amazing about you? Just enjoy the photos for now, and don't waste your energy deciding whether you really want to learn French just yet.
Polly, I want to preface this with lots of love for your work. You are obviously immensely talented and your work has literally gotten me through hard times. I really connect with it. However, sometimes your life advice seems like a moving target. In the past I read a response from you for a letter titled "I hate dating apps so much". You said, "The bottom line is, if you hate dating apps, you’re unlikely to find love through a dating app."
And as someone who also hates dating apps, I took solace in that response. Why is the tone of this one so different?
I get that opinions can change over time, but I think your faithful readers are taking a lot of what you say to heart, so it's confusing and disconcerting (for me at least).
Sorry for this comment in advance. I promise I've also left lots and lots of positive feedback for you too.
I don't think there's any way for me to avoid contradicting myself! I've been writing this column weekly for 9 years. That said, I don't think "Don't use dating apps if you hate them" contradicts "Try to have fun with it and turn it into a creative project." It goes without saying that she should quit them if they continue to make her miserable even after she experiments with writing about them. My main feeling here is that the LW is obviously a great writer who's hates a lot of stuff with a red hot passion. The value of dating apps themselves feels secondary to the larger issue that she's consumed by her loneliness and needs something more generative and soothing to focus on. What I read in this letter is a lot of anxiety and emotional fuel that needs a new target that's more sustainable and energizing.
That's fair! Thank you for responding!
You're welcome. Here's the thing: No one should feel like they're fucking up by NOT using dating apps! I mean, my god. It's not a natural process. If that's something people tell you when you don't use them - fuck that noise. You have to trust yourself and do what's right for you. My hunch is that I'd hate them, too, which I think I've made clear over and over again. But when someone is conflicted and a little obsessed with a topic, that makes you want them to look more closely at WHY. Not because they're fucked up - someone else implied that I was suggesting that the LW was messed up. She seems absolutely smart and sane and delightful to me. When I urge someone to dig for their reasons / preferences/ complicated feelings around something, I'm just pushing them to look at what's there. I mean, as I said at the end, most of us are unaware of what's working on us. The more you know about what's tossing you around and making you feel unsteady, the more you'll understand your reactions to life and people and challenges moving forward. I mean that's basic stuff, but it's incredible how common it is NOT to dig into the difficult things to find out what's going on. Anyway, now I have to thank YOU for listening! Good talk, hugs, see you at next week's campfire chat!
Lol love it. Thanks again!
I love this advice. I did what Polly suggested. Turned the whole dating thing into a memoir and podcast. The art that resulted was WAY more fun than the dates, FYI.
I'm an introvert who LOVES comfy pants. (I'm on my couch in them right now). That said, I did the whole app thing for a year. Bumble, no! Tinder, fun! OkCupid, odd!
In order to date on the apps, I had to dial down my expectations VERY far. It became a kind of social experiment. I made a pact with myself in 2019 to go on fifty dates - made it to fifty-one.
Three relationships came from it. None successful, but it ended up being more about self-exploration than finding 'the one.'
I'm WAAAAY older than you LW, and I still hold out hope. That said I've been off the apps since January 2020 (met a guy - didn't work out and pandemic). I plan to spend the summer clearing out whatever (emotional) cobwebs I need to then I'll try them again come fall.
But the advice from Polly and the commenters is SO true. I think these flinchy and equivocal guys would text forever. REFUSE! Set up a time to meet. Meet them. Determine if you'd ever want to spend more than an hour with them. Rinse and repeat.
Most of the guys I met are nice enough. Some sweet, but not my type. Some really creepy souls, but they were nothing if not interesting. A few married guys...because some guys do not stop dating after saying, 'I Do.'
Maybe it's my age, but I think you have to be good with the emotional unavailability of most of them. But that's okay. I too got to hang out in places I'd never go. Meet people I never would. Hear stories from people I'd never come across in my own social circle of long-marrieds in L.A.
Vulnerability is key. That's the hard part. You'll never see most of these people again, though, so vulnerable is OK!
Pro tip. The apps can be geographical. Maybe don't date too close to your front door.
I am reading through the comments and unsure if someone has already said something along these lines, but my impression upon reading the letter is that the LW is not going on enough in-person dates. I agree with Polly's advice whole-heartedly, but wanted to add: try faster to meet the guys in-person. If they don't want to, that tells you something! As someone who hated the inauthenticity of the apps but then kept trying for YEARS despite finding no serious relationships, I am now partnered to a Bumble guy. My sister (a confirmed introvert) found her BF on Bumble too. And my mom's is from Match. So I agree that one solution is to quit them, but in some ways they are the only way to meet people in this effed-up world.
I guess I'm trying to establish my authority to give advice when I really don't have much :), but just to say I feel like online profiles/chatting just never gave me much of an idea of what someone was really like, let alone our chemistry. So if you can look at that part as the stuff Polly says you have to do just to play the game, and get ASAP to point B (I like some of the comments below on how to handle the chat, too, like jumping in as if you're already friends, much more interesting, no chatting forever and ever) where you can meet and see if you vibe with the person at all. I went on a million first dates, and like <30 second dates over the years. Yes, it's exhausting. I would psych myself up by saying, I'm going out for a drink! With someone I'll have lots to talk to about, since I've never met them!
I have so been where you are, and I know how much it sucks. I'm an old, so my pre-app nemeses were Match.com and their various ilk. I found that even on the rare occasions when I managed to find someone who seemed interesting and non-sheep-like, it was still tough to get the time investment right. I'd waste tons of time laying groundwork (texting probably would have made this much easier) to meet someone I almost always knew was a hard "nope" two seconds after arrival. Or, on one memorable date, when we had spent *way* too much time talking before we met in person, I wound up in bed with a guy who was creepily both a total fucking stranger and someone I (erroneously) felt like I knew intimately (through a ridiculously extended email exchange... and a couple of 2-hour phone calls -- a thing I am now both nostalgic for and horrified to recall existed). I was so freaked out afterward, I wound up deleting my profile and swearing off the platform forever.
All this to say that the thing I recommend most highly (assuming it still exists) -- and I know this will sound nuts to a fellow introvert, but bear with me -- speed dating. I know, *I know*, but seriously: You meet 30 guys in 90 minutes. It's insanely efficient, and if you go in with the right mindset, it can be borderline-to-actually fun. Or, fine, at least kind of entertaining. The idea of approaching it as a science experiment is exactly right. Detach yourself from worrying about how you're coming off and look at it as you interviewing someone for the short-term job of amusing you for a couple months.
Come up with 3-5 non-mundane questions -- manic genius and/or profound insight isn't necessary, just avoid the stultifying standards (almost all the dudes I talked to froze up and threw out desperate zzz-inducers about work, free time, family, blah blah blah). I think I asked about best vacation, most embarrassing school memory, favorite thing to doodle -- probably all the shitty, idiotic prompts you hate on the apps -- but when they have to answer them in person on the spot, it's much more useful. What they say usually doesn't matter as much as whether they seem to get you or smile at your questions or stare at you in horror like you're a whackjob. And if they do the last one, just imagine the scientist in your head nodding while taking notes and muttering, "interesting... #17 gives every indication of being a major crapweasel...NEXT!"
As others have said, certainly better than I'm managing, try to make it fun and interesting for you while looking at the dude across from you as a potentially fascinating (but ultimately eminently replaceable) forest-dwelling creature of a species you happen to be studying for the good of humanity. There's a ton of good advice here, and Polly is right on -- it's fantastic to share your life with a fellow weirdo, but you have to be in a place where you love your weird enough to be able to pull it out and show it off a little before the right weirdo will recognize you and follow you home panting. You'll get there eventually, I promise. We're all rooting for you and sending you deliciously-fruity-yet-bracing virtual cocktails of solidarity.
Heather! Brilliant!
I clicked this link SO FAST because I feel like I could have written this letter a couple of years ago. I was very eager to read the response, but now I'm just... confused.
Why is so much of the advice related to the LW changing her attitude that she's fucked up/unworthy? She says that she feels alienated by her circumstances, not that she doesn't like who she is as a person. Why is the assumption that she's faulting herself for not being like the average dating app user?
And how can someone simply decide that something soul crushing is not soul crushing? 99% of the advice given by most people is some variation of "change your outlook." Which makes sense, in a way, because it's the only thing that's really in the LW's control here. But, practically speaking, I'm not sure how anyone really follows that advice. How does anyone choose enjoy a romance with the moon? I don't think I even know what that means. And, maybe more to the point, how can a moon romance be genuinely satisfying when someone wants a real connection?
I see "It’s not as lonely as you think." and I think... yes it is. What am I missing?
I don't think the LR is fucked up at all. On the contrary I think most everyone on these apps feel the same way. I know I did! But in order to have a real connection (and not be lonely), one must get out and actually meet the people they encounter on the apps. My bet is 99% of folks on these apps feel the same way and a lot of them are just trying to find someone, anyone they can connect with. But this will not happen while staring at someone on a screen or reading their cringy forced profiles that put everyone into the same box. I have met many interesting and extremely intelligent artsy sensitive men through dating apps, but you never would have known this based on their profile! It's so hard to put yourself out there, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. It is work, but it is worth it in the long run.
"It's awful, but you have to slog through it" is decent enough advice, and that's what Polly touched on first.
I get "you have to keep doing this even though it's alienating." What I don't get is the advice that it doesn't have to be alienating. The "delight in the stupidity" and "embrace your conflicted soul" and all that. I don't understand how, practically speaking, anyone actually applies that to their own life.
Oops posted before I was done, but I love the idea of exploring what you hate about the apps! Don't give up on them yet, we can try to take the broken parts of our society and make them work for us. Wishing you best of luck!!